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Patrick said
When Matisyahu visited New Zealand in 2006 he gave a prayer for peace but then told the media that he supported Israel’s vicious bombardment of Lebanon.
I think that man has some screwed up views.
Tell No Lies said
I was surprised to see the video here as well. Matisyahu is a talented and fascinating figure. But still.
nando said
Explain, TNL? You were surprised because…. Is he known to be reactionary?
Patrick said
He publically supported Israel’s 2006 invasion of Lebanon (see my original post)
Mike E said
I’d like to probe a bit for more — for a larger picture of what he represents.
Matisyahu is an American Jewish musician who sings reggae — and who blends traditional Jewish themes in with contemporary music trends. The fact that he speaks for “peace” and yet (when pushed) supported the last Israeli attacks on lebanon is (unfortunately) a familiar thing: A significant part of those involved over time with the Israeli Peace Now movement supported the incursions in 2006 (because of the rocketing of civilians in Israel).
So I’m curious if his stand reflects that kind of trend — which (obviously) has been part of overall disturbing directions taken by the politics and alignments around Palestinians and their important, justified liberation struggle.
I’m also curious to hear how others think we should view the relationship between the art created by an artist and their own specific political inclinations. Obviously for revolutionaries, those things are both important, and i’m curious how others think they should connect. (For example, Ray Charles did not honor the Sun City boycott against apartheid, Leonard Cohen, who we posted today, was not involved in the current effort to boycott Israel, long time progressive activist Springsteen did support the U.S. attack on Afghanistan, etc.) Certainly we should note such things. But beyond that…
Is it wrong for Kasama to post a song by someone like this (including Cohen, or Matisyahu), and then discuss in some depth what they represent and think?
It is a quite common questoin around Kasama — where a posting is sometimes seen as endorsement, and so solicits surprise or anger.
Clearly he represents something both culturally and politically, that people around this discussion could learn more about and that can stand to be unraveled — The cultural fusion, the decline of leftists and radical sentiments among Jewish people, the problems sorting out desires for “peace” with support for Israeli acts against neighbors and Palestinians.
* * * * * **
BTW for a different sentiment emerging from among Jewish people in the U.S. check out this song and narrative;
Tell No Lies said
Matisyahu was a Lubavitcher until a couple years ago and I haven’t seen any reason to think his turn towards other currents in Chasidism reflects a questioning of the Lubavitch stance on Israel. Though who knows. He is obviously a very interesting case of cultural cross-pollination and seems very genuinely on a spiritual quest. In general I think revolutionaries need to develop a deeper understanding of the appeal of ecstatic and mystical forms of religious expresion. So I want to be careful about jumping to conclusions. All that said we are still talking about someone who is publicly promoting what I can only view as a medeival theology with respect to women, sexuality and so on, not to mention his support for Israel. I’d be interested in hearing from folks who have followed his career more closely though
Tell No Lies said
As to the question of whether or not such a video should be posted here, my view is that yes it should, if only to provoke us to dig deeper into something we might otherwise treat superficially. As Marx said somewhere: “Nothing human is alien to me.” I was just surprised to see it posted without comment. I don’t think comment is always neccesary. Indeed, I think, if anything Kasama, devotes too much energy to reminding people that not everything posted here constitutes an endorsement, which I think we should expect people to understand simply by virue of the breadth of what gets posted. It seems an infantilizing response to the peculiarities of a sect (the RCP) where there was a practice of sealing people off from unapproved ideas. So I’m not really concerned that Kasama might be perceived as endorsing Matisyahu’s views on Israel or women. But given those views it did seem odd to post the video without noting them as something to discuss.
Koba said
Not that it certainly doesn’t matter but, I think there’s a tendency to reduce artist’s work to their position on a particular question or another…there hasn’t been a single comment about the actual song yet.
Tell No Lies said
Koba is correct. But then this is a political site, so I think it is fair at least to expect that we’ll be discussing the intersections between the artistic and the political. I like Matisyahu’s sound and find the whole playing off, both stylistically and lyrically, of the similarities between Orthodox Judaism and Rastafarianism sort of delightful even if I am personally drawn to neither. I generally find such hybridity hopeful insofar as it breaks down rigidly defined identitities. That said, the title of the song is more promising than its actual lyrical content. The lyrics seem to me to be, at the end of the day, another call to look to God for the personal perseverence to overcome individual earthly travails. There is in a lot of reggae an interesting playing with the double (spiritual and material) meaning of concepts of struggle, a recognition if you will, of the divine in peoples collective struggles for liberation, that is really absent here.
Timo said
First one! :p I was surprised to here in the song “There’s something wrong with the system that leaves it’s people victim”. I am very familiar with Matisyahu, almost all his songs consist of very religious lyrics that deal with personal religious struggle(well all the songs I can think of).
Matisyahu Struggla Lyrics:
Open up the gate
Let my prayer rise up
And I struggle every day
just to get myself up
For the force of gravity that
keeps sinking my ship
Time again one is bound to slip
We rip through these days
We flip through the age
Survive stay alive we
won’t trip in the haze
Lost in the maze
I know it’s just a phase
But I dread it dread it dread it
I won’t let my life go to waste
I’m a struggla
Rise and never fall cause I
been through it all
So ask yourself and think twice
Would you want to live your life
Oh we pay the cost
The pain and all the loss
Sell the youth them dreams of ease and fame
Will be a breeze when you got a big name
Cash fast fast cars to
escape all of the pain
Escape your brain and so it stays the same
We would not lay down
We won’t live in vain
We won’t be drained
And I got to maintain
I won’t let my life go to waste
[ Find more Lyrics on http://www.mp3lyrics.org/bKsc ]
I’m a struggla
Rise and never fall cause I
been through it all
So ask yourself and think twice
Would you want to live your life
Oh we pay the cost
The pain and all the loss
There’s something wrong with the system
That leaves it’s people victim
Keep on slipping can’t seem to catch up
Try to rise at night but my
legs they stay stuck
There’s something wrong in the system
That leaves it’s children victim
…
I won’t let my life go to waste
I’m a struggla
Rise and never fall cause I
been through it all
So ask yourself and think twice
Would you want to live your life
Oh we pay the cost
The pain and all the loss
Oh we pay the cost
The pain and all the loss
Rise and never fall cause I
been through it all
So ask yourself and think twice
Would you want to live your life
Oh we pay the cost
The pain and all the loss
…
Open up the gates let my prayer rise up
Oh we pay the cost
The pain and all the loss
Koba said
really TNL? what struck me about the song was its atypical lack of proselytizing (for Matisyahu) and its adoption of lefty language: “There’s something wrong with a system, that leaves its people victims.”
his new album is a less “friendly” departure from his previous hippie reggae style, a fusion of aggressive dancehall, rock and synth-based hip-hop – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOuZn-NBvIM . it’s pretty much exactly the opposite of what orthodox Jewish parents would be hoping their children were listening to. futuristic music to promote archaic ideology.
shinethepath said
Let me starkly controversial
What’s next? An Asher Roth video?
Lets just go into some basics here about Matisyahu – here is an artist who went from secular hippy kid at the New School to orthodox hasidim and doing old-school reggae. The kitchiness of course is always the same for a mostly white audience – someone palpable and novel for a listen, and gets unwarranted and undeserved attention rather than people pioneering the field.
Once again lets thank the hipsters for this dreadful “musical sensation.”
On another point, how does a white jewish kid from the Northeast all of sudden start doing reggae rap with a Jamiacan accent? – not even a modern accent, but an inflection in really OLD dance hall reggae and dub! There is not even an attempt for Matsiyahu to create his own voice, his voice is the mas of a Jamiacan black man of the dance hall era – this isn’t cross pollination, its backwards cultural racism.
But it isn’t Matsiyahu’s fault – he is just following the long line and tradition of sanitization of culture to give us a taste of it, without its substance. Matisyahu is riding the heels of Pat Boone.
Tell No Lies said
Koba raises an interesting point. I haven’t followed Matisyahu’s development nor do I know his work that well and therefore may be missing the significance of what seemed to me a throwaway line about the “system” in an otherwise spiritually individualist song. This, I think, underlines the importance of having a dialectical perspective that seeks to see things in their process of becoming.
STP’s comments aren’t really “controversial.” They are rather, I think, a quite familiar comfortably more-radical-than-thou take on popular culture. (Have you ever read a movie review by bell hooks?) I think Matisyahu is a talented and interesting pop artist playing with genres. Whether there are more pioneering people out there is really beside the point. There always are and knowing who they are and liking them first is, as I see it, the essence of hipsterism. Not the worst sin in the world by any stretch, but not neccesarily genuinely radical either. I know that Matisyahu doesn’t have that significance, but Koba has identified reasons to pay attention.
When interesting or oppositional ideas or themes enter the mainstream of popular culture it is worthy of notice irrespective of whether it is to your taste. I think Rage Against the Machine sound like a tuneless washing machine with a dog in it falling down a flight of stairs. I am still able to appreciate the significance of their popularity.
I think the charge of cultural appropriation is made too casually. All culture of any interest to me at least involves borrowing, hybridization, and synthesis and has for all of human history. Singers have been biting syles and accents they like for as long as there has been song and they find their own voices in the process. I see nothing inherently racist in copying old dancehall sounds. There is implicit in this criticism, I think, a notion of authenticity that isn’t really grounded in how culture is actually lived by most people, and when taken seriously usually has reactionary implications. I reserve my criticisms for those who don’t acknowledge their debts or whose borrowing makes a mockery of their sources (except where they deserve mockery).
Mostly white audiences? 80% of Hip Hop purchased in the US is bought by whites. Most black culture in the US has a mostly white audience. That is just the reality of the culture industry in a country that still has a white majority, in which the best music remains largely black, and and in which white folks on average have more disposable income. There are exceptions, often fleeting, and finding them is an important source of identity for some white folks and I have no problem with that either. I just don’t think people should get too high and mighty about the place they occupy on the culture consumption food chain.
And what is the “substance” of dancehall that Matisyahu is denying us? Could you be any more earnest? Seriously, this is silly. If you want to listen to “authentic” old dancehall, (which of course draws on a whole set of other influences which in turn, etc.. etc…) nobody is stopping you.
shinethepath said
Unfortunately TellNoLies makes one pivotal strawman out of my argument that needs to be address – I’ve in fact haven’t addressed this as merely a question of white cooptation of the musical form, nor have I’ve pivoted a position against cultural infusion and hybridization of maybe two or more forms. This isn’t my argument at all. By going after Matsiyahu for what I am saying, I am not going after Eminem for being a white rapper, or Terry Hall for incorporating middle eastern sounds in his last album – TellNoLies generalizes my argument beyond the point of where I was speaking and therefore scoffingly treats the whole issue.
In fact the treatment of the issue is actually very liberal on TellNoLies part and by that respect I think others on this thread – its not a matter of just “noticing” what cultural phenomena occur and having a position of neutral interest. The contradictions of a rabid Zionist, doing “spiritual” songs, and faking a Jamaican accent are all too prescient and salient points of why this isn’t just a positive phenomena that we should just all admire.
The fake Jamaican accent is a part of a long history of the way in which culture has seen the use of stereotyped characters as a mask for white performers – its unquestionably the WORST type of cultural racism. I don’t accept it in any form, whether its the outright type of putting on black face or something as subtle as behavior mimicry. Is there any doubt amongst people’s mind that a Jewish kid going to New School would end up with an accent? If the idea of cultural appropriation is to mean anything at all, it should at least identify this as an issue.
How isn’t this a mockery of its source? TellNoLies – whats substantially innovative here?
Politically – I don’t find much value in the lyrics of this song, the seeming egalitarianism seems a fake. Its quite obvious to me that from Youth album this is why more or less Matsiyahu is incendiary than anything – vague lyrics that sound empowering contain merely just bad spiritualism. In fact both Youth and Struggla are about essentially the same thing, they’re about young people and vanity, and seeking spiritual elevation – the victims are people who live a coarse materialist life. Just give me a New Age book at the end of the day and let me prep up in simple faith-isms.
This is why I claim really Matisyahu provides us a form similar to dancehall reggae but without its substance, a substance that was rich in the experience of the people of the West Indies and their struggle, their contradictions as a community – so much breath and depth that we can reach into. Whereas Matisyahu only provides the same reinvented wheel about his own hallmark card philosophy. Boring.
orinda said
Then there’s the artistic merits. Musically this song sounded hackneyed and unexciting to my ears. Music is a very subjective experience and reggae is not my fav genre, but that’s my two cents.
shinethepath said
Also when I am talking about “mostly white” audience, I should have clarified of a certain type (which I thought might be implicit). I was speaking mostly of hipster liberal white audiences – Matiyashu fits neatly into their sterilized existence and their love of cultural gimmicks. Its not the same 80% of kids.
Koba said
STP, the “hipster white liberal audience” is also MIA’s primary audience (she signed under Fader magazine’s imprint, even). This in and of itself doesn’t discredit her work. Similarly Rage Against the Machine had a lot of (frankly) meatheaded frat boys in their shows. It’s superficial to judge an artist’s merit by who shows up at concerts.
That said I don’t think anyone is saying that Matthew is “just a positive phenomena that we should just all admire,” in fact I suggested this video precisely to get into these questions since I haven’t formed a solid opinion on Matisyahu myself (generally I like his music and greatly dislike the substance of it and have a hard time reconciling them).
I think it’s incorrect and narrow to say that Matisyahu’s work is simply a gimmick and white cooptation of Jamaican culture, that sort of brushing away comes from a tired old school of nationalism. In fact I think Matisyahu’s fusion of dancehall, reggae and rock is the one thing that makes him exciting, it’s his politics, religiosity and often uninspired writing that make him a drag. Imagine how exciting his “experiment” would be if it were fueled instead by a creative secular radicalism. Incidentally Matisyahu, from what I have gathered, is pretty genuine and legit and is viewed as such by many other respected reggae artists. He has been featured at Carifest and other large reggae festivals, Sly & Robbie and other notable producers have worked with him, he’s collaborated with Jah Dan, etc. Unfortunately part of this appeal springs from his zealous religious character. His views on women and homosexuality aren’t exactly too far removed from Rastafarianism.
Have you ever tried to sing Marley or Burning Spear WITHOUT a Jamaican accent? Imagine trying to write a song inspired by Irish folk without some degree of Irish inflection. Frankly I find white rappers (Paul Barman? Eyedea?) that sound like they’re from the suburbs to be grating. Is it problematic that he has an accent? Maybe. Is it the “WORST FORM OF RACISM”? Hardly. It’s also not a first (Snow, Collie Buddz). If it were an exaggerated mockery of a Jamaican accent, okay, that is messed up, but that I think isn’t where the problem lies.
My question is, how much room do we allow reconciling negative politics with positive artistic developments? My gut reaction upon hearing *about* Matisyahu – a Hasidic Jew toaster? WTF!? – was to dislike him before even hearing his music. And then I heard King Without a Crown and had to deal with hating that I loved the style. And now I’m thinking that’s a silly and backwards way to weigh culture. Culture is as living, vibrant (or dull), complex and mixed as the people that create it. There are however, artists I reject outright as reactionary assholes, i.e. Toby Keith. I don’t think Matisyahu falls in that category at all. Moreover should we just outright reject Buju Banton, Capleton, TOK, et al. for not only being anti-gay but for promoting actual hate crimes (Slew Dem) against “chi chi men”?
Koba said
One thing I’d like to add that comes to mind. In an interview Immortal Technique was asked for his thoughts on the “mostly white” audience that came to his shows. He answered: “I’d rather have those white kids at my shows then at the Republican National Convention.” (This was during the RNC)
Zack said
Boring song, crap politics. Meh.
jp said
Try Johnny Cash as a white performer who sang Marley’s “Redemption Song” without affecting a Jamaican accent. A real tribute, this was. Also, Cash was reported to have been asked about ‘correcting’ the idiomatic lyric “pirates, yes, they rob I” but he answered “that was written by Bob Marley” which closed the subject.
jp said
Also hear Willie Nelson’s album with reggae rythyms, including covers of some great ones like ‘The Harder They Come’ -I think it’s titled ‘Countryman.” Nelson and Cash, two decent, openhearted and open minded guys.
Mike E said
Heh. It is hard to imagine Cash or Willie singing in a Jamaican drub idiom. Much of their appeal is the “authenticity” of their poses, and their idiom.
But are you making from that an argument that it is wrong for people to lift and learn the language of others. (Like the Animals or Average White Band singing soul and blues). Is that inherently wrong?
get it right said
Shine The Path is making a point about the utter ridiculousness and frankly yes, racism of Matisyahu’s use of a Jamaican accent, not of white musicians playing Jazz, Blues, Soul, Funk, or even Reggae for that matter. There is a difference between blended styles and specific musical influences coming out in original and inspired music, and then yes recycled dancehall with a fake Jamaican accent.
Zack says it best, “Boring song, crap politics, meh”
jp said
It’s clearly not as offensive as singing in blackface, but I would hold that to affect vocal imitations, unless done specifically as imitation (I’ve heard a recording of Phil Ochs imitating Dylan, as parody) is in the same continuum and is defended by the same arguments – “it’s really a tribute.” The problem is inauthenticity, and the same goes for white singers affecting southern accents,which seems incredibly common.
When the Beatles covered the early R&B hits, they remained themselves, and sang as fans of that music, hailing from working class Liverpool.
To effectively incorporate influences, you must have a self to bring as well. Strong (and authentic) voices like Cash and Nelson show the way.
jp said
The Harder They Come http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYYGK6hGTbU
Mike E said
i’m not a fan of making a big deal out of “authenticity” — and I like cross-over and fusion, people crossing borders and blurring identity. I’m a fan of complex influences, and startling shoplifting of cultures. The emergence of heavy metal in Mexico and China is remarkable — quite apart from the content of the songs, or the irritation of cultural national purists.
You write “the problem is inauthenticity” — i’m not familiar with that problem. What exactly is that problem? how does it manifest itself?
You write:
What does it mean that “they remained themselves” — that their identity as Brits was clear at all times? Were the Animals therefore inauthentic — and open to condemnation — since they sounded more Black?
What is “themselves” in this context — is it an identity that does not allow transformation? When is it fixed? If a white british working class youth submersses himself/herself in a distant musical tradition, do they lose “themselves” if they undergo deep transformations of style, identification, accent, etc.?
Should we embrace being American? Should white people in the U.S. preserve some “authentic” nature as “white people”? And if not, what expressions are allowed them, and which are not?
I’m curious how controversial his stuff is among Hasids — since i imagine singing (or listening to) non-traditional black music may not be approved in the closed highly traditionalist world of orthodox judaism. On one hand we can judge this artist in regard to the currents that influence him, and in regard to the quality and politics of his work. I’m also curious on the objective impact of his work on the conservative Jewish communities.
rowlandkeshena said
Having seen Collie Buddz trotted into the discussion about the “co-opting” of Jamaican accents by white reggae artists by Koba, I feel to the need to briefly throw in my own experiential two-cents.
I was born, raised, and until 5 years ago spent the entirety of my life on the tiny Atlantic island of Bermuda, the very same one Buddz grew up on (since he was five) and made his start in the music and entertainment industries, and today it is hard to find a Bermudian out there, especially among the young, who is not a fan of Buddz. So I want to make to quick points regarding accents within the Bermudian context. The first is simple, there has never once been an ounce of controversy raised over his used of a “traditional island” accent (if one is familiar with Bermuda then the fact that Buddz music is filled with Bermudian inflections, slang and references, rather than Jamaican ones becomes immediately clear). On the island the way Buddz toasts/sings is generally accepted as the way dance hall reggae is supposed to be done, regardless of the ethnic background of the artist.
The second point I want to make is this, in Bermuda there are two linguisticly recognized “accents”, the first being the so-called “Mid-Atlantic Neutral Accent” (which happens to be the way I myself speak) and the more recognizable “Bermudian” one (more recognizable in that it sounds more like how a North American English speaker expects an island person to sound). The break down of who speaks in which way has, in my 23 years of experience, has little if anything to do with race or ethnicity. Bermuda’s three main ethnic groups are white, Portuguese (one of the percularities of the island is that Portuguese people are generally considered to be non-white) and blacks/Afro-Bermudians, and I know equal numbers from all three groups who speak with the either the MAN or Bermudian accents. One of the more well known nightly news anchors on the island happens to be white and speaks in a very prominent island accent.
Anyway, my point in bringing all of this up is that much of the argument for cultural theft in the form of accent theft may make sense in a North American context, but once you begin to bring examples in of artists from distinctly different societies the ground it is on begins to get a bit more shakey.
ShineThePath said
1) To respond to this point of audience – actually its fundamentally consistent with an analysis of art to look at audience, works of art aren’t isolated productions – they’re “work” precisely because they act on us and we respond to it, otherwise there wouldn’t be anything distinctive between a canvas painting and a roll of paint on my wall, or nothing different about music and a random assortment of noise. I would even submit, from a Marxist aesthetic, it is this work upon us that is more important than the necessary creative activity in the work.
So the configurations of Matsiyahu’s audience is important – who is listening? Why are they listening? How is Matisyahu brought forward to this audience? I am not going to back down from the point that Matsiyahu is primarily a kitchy novelty that acts to make palpable ironic listening for the Hipster legions.
2) Getting into the thick of cultural cooptation – the assertion this argument just reflects narrow nationalism just really shows the limits here in the thinking out of culture in relation to oppressed people. If we’re going to ask whether or not the subaltern has the right to speak for themselves, can they also sing and make music for themselves? There is an important reason why Matsiyahu is doing a Jamaican accent – is it reggae if he isn’t?
People are able, and have for decades, covered Reggae songs that didn’t in the end merely just reproduce the song in a white face. People have also been significantly influenced to the point of taking the sounds of the culture that was real hybridization – The Clash doing some dub with Mikey Dread, The Two Tone movement which featured bands like the Specials and the English Beat which had band fused of both white English youth and Black people of West Indian descent, the Ska Movement in the US with the early No Doubt or Sublime. Matsiyahu’s reggae is the effectuation in his fake accent – otherwise its just some good beats and production that can’t be called necessarily reggae, its much more electronica.
ShineThePath said
I wanted to raise a defense for Asher Roth right now – even though I his music is awful. Why? Simply on Koba’s point about how Suburban white voices are grating to listen to in Hip Hop – I feel similarly, but why is this? Not many people are grated over 3 jewish men from NYC doing Hip Hop? For that, neither are they annoyed by Eminem’s voice or even British accents in rap (Dizzee Rascal, M.I.A., Streets). So whats the difference? Because there is something quite nearly comically antithetical for a suburban voice in Hip Hop because of the form and its history.
But imagine if a wave of young white men in there middle 20s’ decided to rap using ebonics and effectuated stereotyped urban black tongues – well that’d be fucked up.
So I want to thank Asher Roth for being brave enough to be himself and suck at his craft.
Mike E said
More Jewish-inspired fusion music (with remarkable riffs and a campy edge!) A friend of the band sent this link to spice up our discussion.
Meshugga Beach Party play their creation “Shmatta Hari”
saoirse said
Look politics operate in our cultural landscape. Was it weird in 1985 to be hanging out in more or less all white discos in Bensonhurst Brooklyn when the DJ would play the Beastie Boys but refuse to play Eric B and Rakim? Weird hell yeah but also exciting! Ditto watching my straight boy cousins singing Madonna songs. I tend to see great liberatory opportunities in cultural exploration, synthesis and mash ups. And real pitfalls.
When your a cultural activist or just an avid music lover watching billsburg hipsters laud someone like Matsiyahu or Mastodon (don’t get me started) while remaining comfortably detached from the musics politics or origins is beyond maddening. But this is not simply a matter of people ignoring Black hip hop and listening to the Beastie Boys or Eminem. Its art operating in a commerical medium that drains complexity while it shares its message over the airwaves.
I think who sings the song or who is in the room matters. But I like ghostface and eric b more than political hip hop and I like expose more than Alicia Keys, Rage Against the Machine are fine but don’t hold a candle (or crucifix) to Slayer and Dimmu Borgir.
I am somewhat willing to defer to others opinions about Matsiyahu’s musical and cultural authenticity. But l I think he’s singing from the heart and not hiding what his history is and that’s pretty authentic to me.
Koba said
Rowland, i’ll concede re: Collie (and i’ve had the pleasure of seeing him live), but Snow? Toronto?
rowlandkeshena said
I can’t speak on Snow or others, I just felt the need to add some context concerning Buddz
shinethepath said
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154102
Resisting cultural appropriation – South Park wins again. :)
jp said
Mike, you’ve never encountered phony music? Music intended to cynically manipulate an audience, music co-opting music of liberation, music that is only pose and not art? These are all examples of inauthenticity. I am not referring to maintenance of ‘ethnic purity’ in music.
There are innumerable examples of cross-cultural musical hybrids which are exemplary, such as Coltrane’s incorporation of Indian music into his own. It’s been pointed out that the Clash, for example, incorporated reggae with respect (in addition to my examples of Cash and Nelson).
From the comments, you can see there is no agreement on the subject video. Me, I put it in the category of minstrel show, and minstrel shows are inauthentic, except as authentic anachronisms.
Mike E said
I think that the concept of “authenticity” is used in some very different ways. And is quite a loaded term.
For example, Shinethepath writes:
And expressions like that sometimes suggest that fusion of culture (and the borrowing of cultural creations from the oppressed) are inherently (and sometimes arbitrarily) labeled “cooptation,” or theft, or colonialism etc.
The Elvis Debate…. and Janis and Hendrix?
I am not so sure if I have encountered “phony music” — sometimes the cross-over of music is rather contradictory and complex. There has, for example, been a long history of controversy over Elvis Presley.
For many Black nationalists, Elvis was simply a rip-off — an uncredited appropriation of Black music, and its marketing (in a neutered and de-racinated way) to white people. (And, it did not soften the sting, that Elvis and other white artists often got far more money and fame than the Black musicians who created rock and roll, and its anticedents. And it also didn’t help that Elvis was not particularly energetic about supporting Black people’s struggle for inequality, and also apparently made some off-hand racist remarks as well.)
And all of that is true.
And that same outlook, led some of the same forces to view Jimi Hendrix as simply a confused soul — someone who had wandered from “authentically” black music into a land of hippy-dippy. And also, it led Black nationalists to consider Janis Joplin as another Elvis — i.e. as a white woman inauthentically robbing the treasury of black music (and “making money off of Black people” etc.).
But (back to the example of Elvis) on the other hand, the spread of rock music through various avenues (including initially through Elvis though he was quickly bypassed by other, more radical forms after the early 60s) had an objective impact on the culture.
There was a reason that even Elvis was censored and demonized (with racist preachers burning his records and denouncing him for spreading “jungle music” and the TV cameras only showing him from the waist up).
And the subversiveness of that new music was not just about blurring or crossing the “color line” — We don’t live in a world that is ONLY defined by race and nationality. The phenomenon of rock music or soul music were not JUST about ethnicity, they were also about ways of viewing sexuality and your body, it was about youth and defying your parents’ culture and prejudices, and it was about creating and joining new cultural subcultures.
Don’t We Need to Know the Impact on Hasids?
Again: I wonder what it means (given the rather racist history of the Hasidic communities in Brooklyn, for a hasidic singer to perform in black styles. How controversial is it in the Hasidic community — for someone to point out the similarities between Rastas and Hasids? Do the kids have to listen in secret? In an insular and traditional community, is the music subversive, undemrining the cult walls? I don’t know the answers to that, but I wonder how people can be so hostile WITHOUT knowing those answers, and including them as part of the summation.
The Thrill of the Foreign — and Inauthentic
I think that new forms of culture ripple out from their point of creation. And I am not that sure i can discern the “authentic” from the “phony” in the simple, binary way you suggest.
In the Chinese revolution, rock and roll, jazz, and other foreign musical forms were simply labeled bourgeois — they were considered corrupt and carriers of reactionary ideology. And here too it is complex: often the sections of people in socialist countries most enamoured of international musical trends are those wanting (politically) to “ape the west” or reintegrate into the world imperialist system. and yet… and yet… I can’t help but think that rock and roll might have had other effects on the youth revolt of the cultural revolution. (Or that the spread of hip-hop in Cuba might have a more complex impact on the Black population there, and their attempts at political experession.)
You ask if i have encountered music intended to cynically manipulate an audience. I’d be interested to know what that means. Doesn’t all art and music seek to impact an audience emotionally, intellectually, socially? Isn’t all art or music involved in forms of manipulation?
Is Posing in Performance a Crime?
You ask if I’ve seen music that is only pose and not art. Well, sure, i guess. But sometimes the pose is part of the art.
There is a dogma in some places that “just being yourself” is key to authenticity — so that artists “must” arrive on stage wearing whatever they were wearing around the house, and they speak and act as if they are not performing. (i.e. the wonderful feel of grunge). This anti-performer performance was an element in folk too. Kurt Cobain agonized over being a “rock star” (though he obviously was) and so on.
But in fact isn’t there always “pose” in performance — and doesn’t performance need that, precisely because it isn’t “just life” but is “higher than life”?
Was Queen just a bunch of crap, because Freddy mercury was so “over the top”?
Is the sly posing of Billy Idol just inauthentic — or is he mocking rock stardom, Elvis, and himself?
How do you know, JP, when there is “only pose and not art”? What is an example? And who is the judge?
When Your Positive Examples Were Attacked — Clash and the Beatles
I agree with you, naturally, that the Clash were a wonderful example of “incorporate with respect.”
But let me remind you that they were attacked (precisely!) and rather viciously in the punk seen for being “INauthentic,” for abandoning “who they are,” and for capitulating (by experimenting with other musical forms, by signing with big record labels, and by achieving stadium-sized audiences). Go listen to Joey Ramone rage that the Clash first stole his punk moves, and then abandoned them — a double betrayal!
Why are you upholding the Clash as exemplary, rather then denouncing them as inauthentic punks?
Similarly, you upheld the Beatles in an earlier comment — as an example of authentic:
But like the Clash, they were (precisely!) attacked (and rather viciously) as inauthentic by all kinds of forces. After all, they were highly commmercial and pop-sweet. After all, they put out songs designed to ‘make it in America” (“she loves you yeah, yeah, yeah…”) — and they existed in a scene full of bands that didn’t go that route.
I can’t tell you how many hours of debate I watched — where the Rolling Stones were put forward as authentic, and the Beatles were denounced as shallow pop posers. And ironically, one of the arguments for the authenticity of the Rolling stones was precisely that their music was closer to Blues roots, and sounded more Black. While you, JP, seem to imply that the Beatles sounding more Liverpool (and less Black) makes them more authentic.
The Troubling “Authenticity” of Country Singers
JP wrote:
Finally: It is ironic to uphold two country singers (Johnny Cash and willie Nelson) as respectfully authentic (who don’t ever “stop being themselves.”)
Let’s be honest: The basic audience of country music is nationalist (at best) and xenophobic (at worst). Both Cash and Nelson are, as you say, decent and openminded. They have played a rather progressive role overall (with exceptions).
But, still, why will you never see a major country singer adopt some “foreign” style? Because of “respect” for Jamaican culture and the subaltern?
No: Its the concentrated chauvinism of their target audience. A great deal of country music (which I listen to constantly) is about asserting, reaffirming, proclaiming the authentic identity of their audience (“I was country when country wasn’t cool.”)
And when you start to make a huge deal out of authenticity — isn’t there a slippery logic that finds you to suddenly admiring the “authenticity” of white country singers?
And isn’t that authenticity itself rather manufactured, and posed. (Johnny Cash is hardly free from posing, right? And even Willie’s whole “image,” braids, laidback hippy cowboy — it’s consciously created and refined, right?)
Leaving aside Cash and Willie: Isn’t the constant assertion of identity among “country fans” something tied to white racist and American nationalist authenticity?
Not As Clear as It Seems
Can you see how this seems to go round and round? And how the terms seem to mean whatever anyone wants them to mean?
And further, isn’t there a real process of development — both by the artists and by the larger social/political scene. Obviously the early Beatles were a pop confection (fabricated to “hit the charts”) — but then as the 60s progressed they outgrew that (Sgt. Pepper and beyond), and really became a very creative forces (while not abandoning their evolving pop nature.)
Some musical acts(the Monkees, the manufactured U.S. “boy bands,” Menudo, Hannah Montana, really are “phony” — in the sense that they are corporate creations. They are to music what commercials are to film. But beyond such extreme and obvious examples — is it really so simple or binary?
On one hand, your approach seems very strict, formal and binary. (Some people are posers and some are real artists, some are authentic while some are phony, some are coopting and some are liberation.) But then when I look more closely, I have to ask, aren’t the judgments you make very subjective, and doesn’t that perhaps reflect a problem with the very way you are determined to judge?
A Final Question
I also feel the need to raise an unasked question:
I have long detected a kneejerk impulse to simply reject anything that emerges from Jewish cultures and communities. Because of the history of overt racism in hasidic communities, because of the role of Israel and its fairly uniform support (hard or soft) among U.S. Jews.
Is that an issue here? If this was a Puerto Rican rapper singing in Jamaican tones, would the response be the same? Would there be talk of “minstrel show”?
Anonymous said
If only to further complicate the debate on race and Jewish orthodoxy, here’s Y-Love:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2560899/yitz_jordan_y_love_jewish_hiphop_artist_educator_activist/
jp said
Thanks, Mike, for taking the time for a substantive reply. There is a lot to address there.
For now, let me say that I don’t present a binary analysis – that there is phony music you have admitted, and that there is …not-phony music (let’s leave the ‘authentic’ discussion for later)we both would presumably agree. That all music falls into one category or another is not my contention.
And your sendup of country music is somewhat parochial. It seems a similar attitude to the one you described as “a kneejerk impulse to simply reject anything that emerges from Jewish cultures and communities [substitute white country music culture here].
“…why will you never see a major country singer adopt some “foreign” style?” I’ve already directed you to Nelson’s reggae album. And I would disagree, based on what I know, that “Willie’s whole “image,” braids, laidback hippy cowboy — it’s consciously created and refined, right?” which shows, despite your attack on subjectivity, just how subjective these judgments inevitably are.
Tell No Lies said
Even The Monkees have their contradictions. Have you ever seen their movie, “Head”? Mike concedes the point too quickly that there are some extreme cases of purely corporate creations. Even these are staffed by human beings who can find themselves chafing against the straitjacket. I’m sure I’ll catch hell from the authenticity police for saying so, but Justin Timberlake is a very fricking talented artist and we know where he came from. “Nothing human is alien to me.” Thats my credo in this argument. Enjoy Sun Ra AND Ricky Martin without guilt. Deconstruct it to your hearts content as well. That is an art in its own right. But lose the self-righteous certainty. There are simply too many variables involved in the production and consumption of culture to play it like that.
For those who can bear it, here is “Pat Boone’s” version of Redemption Song:
http://www.spinner.com/2008/11/05/matisyahu-redemption-song-video-exclusive/
What a frickin racist. You can tell from the Madeleine Albright cameo.
sepia tone said
In my experience the obsession with authenticity in culture, particularly in food and music, is a kinda North American thing, or at least Anglo-American thing (it features heavily in the British colonial quest as well, at least in the Indian sub-continent). Most people in the world seem to just listen to what appeals. A case in point…
“but Snow? Toronto?” – Koba
You know where Snow’s albums have always sold well? Jamaica. It was North American audiences that got kind of fickle about wanting their Jamaican sounding music to come from black people in the wake of Informer’s success, so he faced a backlash in North America. Just like many like to eat at “authentic” Thai restuarants(but shhhh, don’t tell them most of those are owned, operated and staffed by Chinese people). As for Toronto, the city’s cultural life since at least the 1980′s has been increasingly influenced by the presence of a large Caribbean population, especially from Jamaica, Guyana and Trinidad. I don’t see why Toronto would be a surprising location for such artists.
I also liked what Rowlandkeshena had to say.
shinethepath said
My “self-righteous certainty” is only in measure to lazy thinking “nuance” that only makes the point which is very simple – culture is a complex field, there is always more to the story. Who is arguing otherwise? Who has said Boy Bands don’t have dyanmics? The problem with some of the comments here is that only apply a stereotyped version of the critique, building a strawman, in order to present themselves as the median rationality. People offering a critique of racism involved in cultural production surely can have just as much a nuanced account and it can certainly make a strong political claim at the same time (Daringly more radical than the position offered by Mike and TellNoLies), providing a scathing differential approach to culture that enables people to contend against hegemony, to create revolutionary culture and communities. This is why this posturing for nuance is rhetorically similar to nearly all other types of “nuance” which is really a call to blunt radical critique that tries unearth embedded racist problematics, no matter how benign. It is a liberalism that wants to get its cake and eat it to and stop the knife from cutting deep.
Are we not quick to forget that this very exact narrative of “contradictions” that are both positive and negative fits the story of Jolson and his black face routine? Jolson introduced probably whole majority of white America to Jazz music, was accepted by part of the black artist community of his time, championed anti-discrimination, and was altogether politically “progressive” (“Hey Buddy, Can You Spare Dime?) – so why not a historical defense of the minstrel show for breaking ground, crossing color barriers, giving the thrill of the exotic “foriegn”?
This is how I orient my own position against that of Mike and TellNoLies here. To take up the critique is a political question that directly goes to the question of what is culture and how ideology plays out. There are a number of things in interest here, how does cultural production actually work in the relationships of commodity production (where is the “organic” development, where is its manufacturing)? How does cultural production then situate itself ideologically and politically amongst us?
The critique of cultural appropriation and racism embedded in cultural production in the hegemony tries to offer one vantage point to understand this in a white supremacist context. Going deeply into how racism and national oppression play out, whether very consciously or through systematic processes. Getting to understand why there is a need for a white vanguard to break in “exotic” influences is a necessary, yet maybe uncomfortable, part of understanding how cultural production – The white artists’ black mask has to be looked at whether its Al Jolson, Elvis, Eric Burton, Eminem, Matsiyahu, etc. It certainly already says something inditing about how popularization of art and music occurs, it doesn’t have to necessarily do that in particularity with artists and the movements around the, things can be rather more benign as others and some as not.
I am not going to be a simple relativist here – there is something integral to the question of authenticity, I am not going to so deeply into because I don’t have it all worked out yet, but there is something laughable always about Kenny G and something which isn’t in Chet Baker. And that is nearly so common in thinking, that it has to reflect something generally here or its a conspiracy against Kenny G and his Sax playing. I think what Baker, Eric Burton, Joe Strummer, Madonna, Bowie, Eminem and others offer vaguely something that is bound to their embeddedness and reciprocal appreciation broadly in the cultures, they have had taken images and sounds from to create their art. And does Matsiyahu does have that? I mean listen to an interview with him and then listen to his songs – the rift between himself and his pose is too strong, in fact I think Al Jolson probably had more street cred in his time.
—-
On another number of points Mike raises
IN RELATION TO THE HISIDIC COMMUNITY
Lets look at it from another angle, can it just be as possible that Matsiyahu can just as much be incendiary to this “cult” or can it meld and give further authority to it; just as there is a new feeling amongst the Black community of legitimacy in the bourgeois electoral process because of the election of Barak Obama. While the hasidic lubavitch community can seem isolated from the world, lets remember they’re still in Brooklyn! In a city of 8 million people, 1 million which are Jewish (mostly secular at that). There has already been pressure on their community. Envagelicals didn’t endanger themselves, even when some started death metal christian rock bands, in fact it started growing! If the Mormons started doing Salsa, they would probably double in the Bronx. Matsiyahu got his start by conferring with Lubavitch rabbais who approved of his decision to get a backing band. Rather than Matsiyahu challenging the status of his community, he sterilizes the genre with conservative spiritualism.
*That’s why I called him a modern Pat Boone, TellNoLies, Boone sang Rock & Roll records in such a way to only encourage the stability of the culture (good thing it failed). By the way, you weren’t struck by the irony that Matsiyahu is talking about human slavery, and how Bob Marley’s music is universal? Well more shame on him then when he has nothing but hate for Palestine!
ON JEWISH CULTURE
This is not made an issue of him being Jewish and that’s certainly not implied – in fact I’m only well aware of the vast part and ways in which Jewish people have played pivotal roles in developing culture – from film, theatre, to music and beyond (even ways which are unseen, e.g. Rick Rubin). Let not get this confused, this wasn’t really the issue
CAN BORICANOS DO REGGAE?
Yes! And they have for decades, Mike. Come on! There is a whole genre called Reggaeton which began developing from the influence of Jamaican Reggae and Dancehall sine the 70s’ or even earlier. Have you ever listened to Daddy Yankee? I’ve yet to come across, however, as case example a Puerto Rican artist purposely appropriated a Jamaican accent for his music. But even if someone did, in the way Matisyahu, that’s still be fucked up.
I definitely feel there is something of projection here – that really any discussion of appropriation can only be a way of just keeping whitey away from the fun. But that isn’t the point – there is a legitimate concern about, especially in the struggle for actualization of political self-determination, that culture matters as a voice of the oppressed. I am all for fusion and hybridization, but it certainly can’t be one-sided, and unfortunately in a regime of a global colorline and dominance of capital, that will remain an issue.
Bob said
A few comments:
1. It seems to me that Shine The Path misses Mike’s points in relation to the Hasidic “community” (if community is the right word: it’s really several different and often antagonistic micro-communities). To the non-Hasidic world, Matisyahu may have played a role in promoting the reactionary Lubavitch sect by presenting a “cool” version of Hasidism. To the Lubavitch and to other Haredi Jews, though, how was he received? This is Mike’s question: is it possible he plays more of an Elvis role than a Pat Boone role to that community, subverting their racial certainties?
2. I don’t know enough about Matisyahu’s Middle East position. Do we have evidence that he “has nothing but hate for Palestine”? He has left the Lubavitch movement, which, unlike most Hasidic sects, is fiercely Zionist. Do we know whether he has distanced himself from this aspect of the Lubavitch worldview.
3. On Elvis. The argument that Elvis stole the music of black artists like Big Mama Thornton and Arthur Crudup is familiar and not wholly wrong. In an economic sense, certainly he got rich and they didn’t. But isn’t it complicated by the fact the many of the songs, e.g. “Hound Dog” were written by Jews, such as Leiber and Stoller and Doc Pomus? Who “owns” these songs, this culture? The Jewish writers? The black artists who cut the first versions? Elvis (who grew up listening to black radio) who reinterpreted them for a mainly white audience? (Same with hip hop. The seminal “White Lines” of course samples the awesome bassline and “steals” some of the lyrics of the white band Liquid Liquid, who I think included Latino, Irish-American and Anglo-American members. Actually, the sample is of the (I think all black) Sugar Hill house band covering Liquid Liquid. Who “owns” hip hop?
4. Y-Love. He busts the idea of “authenticity” out of the water. Not only imitating someone else’s accent, but actually learning Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic.
5. I agree with Jp that Mike is too harsh on country music, even though a few Kasama readers (including me) are obviously included in the demographic “country music fans”. Country music is a lot more complex, and so are its fans. Yes, reactionary politics, but also radical politics. And the genre has historically been quite open to black influences – see the great “Country Got Soul” compilations. But how Jp can think Willie Nelson’s braids are not a manufactured image I don’t know.
Finally, just to say that I have been very impressed at the level of debate in this thread. And also that I agree with Sepia Tone.
Skwisgaar Skwigelf said
Just to correct the record a bit regarding Elvis:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/opinion/11guralnick.html
jp said
I’m still trying to find the time, in the midst of some personal/work issues, to address some of Mike’s questions with the coherence they require.
But what is this problem with Willie Nelson’s braids? Has anyone here ever had long hair? I have, and sometimes I braided it. His transformation to ‘hippie’ was not the idea of some record company; it resulted from his rejection of alcohol and nashville’s production line music.
I’m not, despite my respect for Willie, part of the country music target audience. If I could only have the recorded output of one artist it would be John Coltrane. The artist I have seen most often in concert is Cecil Taylor.
But has anyone ever noticed that criticizing the music that others like is very risky business? It engenders far more friction than, say, criticizing the works of a favorite author, or even a favorite movie. Music seems to become a part of us in a very particular and sometimes overwhelming way.
Mike E said
A brief sidenote on country:
Apparently I was a bit understood. I am far from harsh on country music, or country singers. I’m a big fan — as many of you know (including especially of the more progressive country artists like Willie, Dixie Chicks, the old Outlaw trend, and the occasional attempt to do a radical country band, like O.V. Hirsh’s Storm and Twang.)
My point was not to dis country, but to point out that a focus on authenticity reveals its problematic side when you start to praise (or seek) the supposed “authenticity” of white people and their culture. I have heard Native traditionalists say “Don’t snoop around our culture, it is ours, not for sharing. Go find your own roots.” And I would have visions of white guys putting on helmets with viking horns, or developing a fascination with “the old ways” of tribal Europe. (And need I say, that there are reasons that the worship of Wotan in Germany or the cult of the Vikings in Scandinavia have generally been the geeky fascination of the nazi-like far right, like skins?)
Or, for example, at the height of the 60s, when all the various oppressed nationalities were discovering pride in their history and struggle, there was a strange attempt to imitate that in regard to white Southerns who had migrated to slums in northern cities. And (in the name of authenticity) you had a supposedly leftist party for poor southern whites that called itself “The Patriot Party,” and that had as its symbol the Confederate flag (!), and that had as its leader a man who called himself “Preacherman.” It was artificial, of course, and mechanical. But the point remains: not all “authenticity” is worth pursuing, and not all historical and cultural roots among the people can be adapted to radical symbolism.
And in fact i think there is often something rather IN-authentic about the search for authenticity — because very often ithas to be resurrected, reconstituted and reaffirmed. The dashiki wearing “cultural nationalists” of the 1960s were often adopting and proclaiming “African” culture and customs that had been greatly modified and even distorted through a very American lens. Kwanzaa is an example of an invention disguised as a reclaiming of authenticity.
And finally, just to dig at this some more: Art is higher than life, it is not life itself. So there is always something of the artifice, pose and performance in art (inherently) even if that artifice, pose and performance actively seeks to portray itself as casual, natural and anti-star. That was the meaning of my remark about Willie (who I love, and whose natural image is attractive to me. In other words, JP you misunderstand, no one has a problem with Willie’s braids, not at all.) On one hand, I have not doubt that Willie’s public persona is very natural to him (i.e. that he is comfortable with that persona, costume, hair, image etc.) — but that in a highly socialized world of image projection we should not naively think that the image is DIRECTLY real. Even with Willie there are armies of agents, demographers, photographers, ad men, marketers discussing the nuances of how his persona and image can be correctly portrayed through the kalaidescope of mass media and market place.
And (need I add) that any serious political movement both develops a genuine, real existence (a style, a way of operating, a culture, a program) — and also (at its peril) takes quite seriously PROJECTING all that (just like everyone else) through the prisms of mass perception — through the media, through its public faces, its symbols and sharp slogans.
jp said
I’m trying to re-read the thread, and i’d like to take a moment to discuss ‘authenticity,’ which word many of us are using to mean different things (Mike referred to this also).
Here’s a stab at what I mean by it: I learned to hear music listening to jazz, specifically T. Monk (after which, parenthetically, I realized that different ways of playing music require different ways of listening).
In my resultant study of jazz, simultaneously backward and forward from Monk, I realized that the artistic goal of jazz composers and musicians was to find their own voice on their chosen instrument. This is what i mean when i refer to authenticity- is what you are expressing your own message, and is it being expressed with your own voice?
Musicians or performers who replicate the musical licks or lyrics of others lack authenticity. Composers, producers musicians who express, typically for commercial reasons, someone else’s message lack authenticity.
Drawing on others’ artistic vision is typically part of a process of finding authenticity – few musicians (but some) spring fully formed from their own artistic vision.
However, the commodified nature of music and musical performance in our time and place creates a vast space for music that is not only inauthentic in the above sense, but crosses over into a category of inauthenticity i call phony music. You can choose your own definition, but i’ll pick off some easy targets to make the point: muzak; cocacola’s ‘i’d like to teach the world to sing,’ as well as all the other covers of music re-used to promote commodities; the star spangled banner (especially at sporting events).
I am never referring to ‘ethnic purity’ in this discussion of authenticity, only the artist’s true vision and its expression, in which nothing human need be alien. I haven’t addressed everything here but i’ll try to get back to this later.
Mike E said
I think our project either aspires to (and represents) a universality — or we really can’t represent a break from what is.
And to me the very concept of authenticity is stuck in a romanticized past (an idealized and imagined thing) — in a way that is, at its heart conservative in a world of dynmaic change. We need to stand with what is coming into being — and be consciously shaping that… not daydreaming about what was, and idealizing that.
jp said
Mike,if your last response was to me,it doesn’t address anything i said. A human being expressing their vision through art authentically, as i have attempted to describe it, is not a daydream but is living breathing human reality.
TOR said
For me, Matisyahu both subverts and reinforces Hasidic Judaism in various ways that are too complex to get into. I actually went to a religious Jewish school for 4 years when I was growing up and still have occasional contact with Hasidic Jews, and can tell you that the kids probably love his music and the parents probably do to but have to say to people that they hate it and that it’s ruining the ‘traditional’ culture Hasids have been trying to cultivate. I’ve met Hasidic rabbis who say they don’t like hollywood films, Clint Eastwood and Steven Spielberg, but I think they really like these films and feel guilty about it because they aren’t supposed to. They thus say they don’t like them and secretly enjoy watching their movies in private so they can later talk to people about how bay they are and how they are bad influences on Jews.
This is all very contradictory. Hasidic Jews also seem to have a natural inclination to dislike certain elements of capitalism from a reactionary position, and probably don’t like democracy that much either. As a political-economic ideal, they’d probably support some kind of primitivist socialism or some variant of feudalism.