Prostitutes & Beggars under China’s Hollowed Hammer-and-Sickle
Posted by Mike E on July 18, 2011
Ending prostitution and the sale of girls was one of the proudest accomplishments of China’s communist revolution. When the cascade of pro-capitalist “reforms” came down in 1978, there were quickly almost-gleeful reports in the mainstream western press that prostitution was back. It was (for western reporters and their masters) an exciting and welcome bellweather, a sign that the sale of human beings had returned in all its many forms, and that China was no longer determined to prevent the abuses of capitalist society.
The following is a new report from our Kasama reporter deeply familiar with south China. (This reporter’s previous reports was also published here on Kasama.)
“The symbols of the communist revolution are now everywhere in China by official decree. Meanwhile, the essence of all those militant symbols of revolution are being stripped of all meaning by beggars, prostitutes, rampant corruption, and the oppressive conditions of labor. Of all the depressing things in China, that is the most depressing of all.”
by Kasama reporter in South China
I try, whenever possible, not to stay at hotels in China and there is one thing I absolutely will not photograph.
In all the hotels I have stayed at it is far too common to get a phone call from a prostitute paying the front desk clerk to let her know when a single man has checked in. Foreigners is especially prized and while it is easy to just hang up, it is, for me, a very depressing encounter.
Worse than the phone calls are the women walking the beautiful streets of Shamian Island in Guangzhou who have business cards, in English, evoking Vietnam War films with phrases like “Me so horny.”
Even more disturbing in China is the fact that I have yet to come here and beggars in the streets or outside Buddhist Temples. Old women set in front of their begging bowls or kneel in supplication as crowds of shoppers flow around them. Children work the stopped cars at an intersection or wait for tourists to get off a riverboat tour of the dramatic landscape on Vietnamese border.
Every single one of these images in burned in my memory and I should have photographed at least one but I simply cannot make myself point the camera at these scenes of degradation.
For many American tourists what they see here is disorienting because, in the words of one, “it doesn’t look like China.” That is to them it doesn’t look like a compilation of stereotypical images derived from a movie set depicting the late Qing dynasty. The people here have cell phones and the cities have building as ugly as any urban center in the world.
Since China is the home most of the clothes on sale at the mall you can expect that folk will not be dressed in embroidered silk robes. For me the disorientation is the crazed juxtaposition of a billboard announcing “Life. A journey to elegance” (depicting an arrogant looking white guy in a very expensive suit) across the street from a banner adorned with the hammer and sickle.
The People Republic of China, however, is not just a larger version of Japan or a northern version of India. Its revolutionary heritage has affected people in a way that has left a legacy of egalitarianism that the capitalist sector has not yet erased. Intellectuals here decry the blatant corruption within the government and there are any number of prescriptions as
to why things are so bad and what should be done.
The imprisoned dissident Liu Xiaobo was honored by the Nobel prize and believes the current problems can be traced to the fact was not more colonization; that all of China was not Hong Kong. In this he echoes the British right wing historian Neil Ferguson whose work effusively praises British colonialism and its “civilizing” effect on the third world.
An empire of brothels
Having once served in the American Army and been stationed overseas during the late Vietnam era, I have a different opinion of empire as seen from the bars and brothels that services the troops. Liu Xiaobo’s twisted take on the history of his own
country is a sad testament to an intelligent man so alienated from a corrupt government he has abandoned any faith in the revolutionary traditions of his own people.
When he gets out of prison he would do well to read an old novel by a former sailor in the American gunboats that patrolled the rivers and helped enforce the unequal treaties that robbed, and degraded, the Chinese people. The book is “The Sand Pebbles” by Richard McKenna and it is a remarkable account of the true face of empire.
He portrays a young Chinese women working in a bar “auctioned off” by drunk American businessmen as well as a militant demonstration by Chinese women on International Women’s Day as they protest an American gunboat in Changsha. At the end of the book the American sailors launch a pointless military assault to save American missionaries who are only endangered because
of the attack. The commanding officer tries to convince the Americans to come with him by raising the specter that the woman missionary will be raped.
Please forgive the long quote but I was really moved by this book and its overt message that these conditions brought forth revolutionary struggle.
The symbols of that struggle are now everywhere in China by official decree. Meanwhile, the essence of all those militant symbols of revolution are being stripped of all meaning by beggars, prostitutes, rampant corruption, and the oppressive conditions of labor.
Of all the depressing things in China, that is the most depressing of all.
From the Sand Pebbles
“You, Miss Eckert,. They will strip you and rape you…”
””You rape them yourselves with your power to buy their starving flesh!” she cried at him….
Holman stood up. He closed his eyes and he could still see her twisted face and hear her cry. Her face was the face of those women on the Changsha bund.
Other faces crowded into his memory, scores of Chinese girl-faces crying and naked, slender girl bodies shrinking and wincing and trembling under him. For seven years and a hundred pigshacks …..(note: American sailors called Chinese women “pigs.” )……along the China coast they came all to him at once. Like most American sailors, he had always taken the young and tender ones, and he had paid the extra money that cost. He had always been gentle with them. Afterward he would hold them and stroke them, while they cried and trembled, until they would relax and nestle into them and cling to them, and he would feel that they had forgiven him. But now he knew he would never forgive himself.
chicanofuturet said
Totally outrageous.Totally unacceptable.
Words cannot describe the scope,immensity of these crimes.As always it is the weakest most defenseless elements of society which suffer the most,carry the agonizing burden of capitalist exploitation.Children and women.
I believe there is a promising new distinct global collective human consciousness coalescing,gradually taking form,with definite,identifiable contours and shapes.
It is the struggle for TRUE Democracy,anti-war,freedom from economic exploitation and rape,self-determination and people’s sovereignty.
We hope it moves beyond the stage of mass rebellion to that of highly organized revolution,hopefully communist revolution.
In China,we can blame the crimes on revisionism and capitalist roaders who have almost totally corrupted,discredited the Communist project there.
IMHO,this is the “low hanging” fruit of communist political analysis.
But I believe there are other dimensions to these crimes just as deep and profound as this critique which need to be analyzed,investigated,debated.
How could this happen to the Chinese People’s Revolution ??Why…?
Personally,I believe part of the answer can be found by studying the Russian and Chinese revolutions,Stalin,Mao and the Great Cultural Revolution.
Some of the conclusions I come up with are not particularly easy ones,neither are they particularly pleasant to think upon because they involve revolutionary law,violence and punishment on a vast systematic scale.
Stalin was right!
I believe that he had the correct communist instinct and understanding which is that revolutionary violence is absolutely necessary for protection of the revolution,to defend the people against the growth of evil reactionary capitalist,economic,cultural and social ideology.
Mao understood this also as did the Great Cultural Revolution of the 60′s.
The problem was they did not carry it out far enough.
Political ideological struggle is not enough!
In order to destroy capitalist ideology you must destroy it at its very roots,political,social and cultural.
The level of people’s vigilance must always be high to identify,rehabilitate,punish or execute if needed forces and movements which want to restore capitalist robbery,tyranny,war,exploitation,rape.
This task must be done from top to bottom.
A good local example of the morally corrosive effect of corruption on a third world country is Mexico where the capitalist mentality is so deeply ingrained in society that it has infected almost all sectors of society,social relations from the street level to police,governmental and business institutions of all sizes.Mexico is basically a straight-up naked Mafia State,de facto controlled and run by drug cartels,US banks and corporate robbers.
By necessity Communist Revolutionary governments have extremely difficult decisions which they must make in order to defend their revolutions.Not easy but someone has to make such decisions.
It is my opinion that Stalin,Mao and the Great Cultural revolution did not go far enough in exterminating capitalism at it’s root.
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if a future communist revolution in the US and Mexico is ever to survive it will require that millions of rotten unrehabilitative capitalist criminals,corrupt social criminal elements be imprisoned or executed publicly.
Otherwise you will have a repetition,the same outcomes of capitalist restoration as in both the Russian and Chinese revolutions.If you want to defend the people and the revolution there is no other way around it.
Red Fly said
Year Zero, eh?
Chicanofuturetense, you’re absolutely right that communists need to be vigilant to protect the revolution, but when you start talking about how Stalin didn’t go far enough and the need to publicly execute millions (!) I start to worry a little bit.
Might there not be other ways to defend the revolution?
chicanofuturet said
Red Fly
“Might there not be other ways to defend the revolution?”
Yes,there will be other peaceful ways to defend the revolution,and they should be the primary means employed for
dealing with dangerous criminal political and social elements.
Soon there will be almost 400 million people living in the USA and I would venture to speculate that if there were to be a communist revolution in this country the vast majority of americans would support,co-operate,share in the revolution.That is the good news.
Now the bad news,let us not forget the USA is the beast and we live within it’s belly.
The USA is the “host”home base to world capitalism and it’s ruling classes,loyal allies,supporters and defenders.There are tens of millions of them in this country,those whom have all shared in the spoils of the crime of capitalist exploitation,the booty of imperialist wars.They are a huge class of criminals,bandits,thieves,robbers,rapists..
These people are some of the most foul,evil,vile,insane,destructive forces on the planet.They will never ever surrender power,and IMHO it would be extremely idealistic,liberal,foolish,naive,to expect otherwise.Most people are unable to visualize,comprehend,conceptualize the absolutely stunning profound level of human destructiveness and evil in this US capitalist hell.
Even just a brief glimpse at such evil is enough to unnerve and sober any rational moral human being.It is that horrible.Thanks to some progressive artists and flim makers,we are presented with these things in an artistic form which can be powerful messages and metaphors to understanding the evil of capitalism.
There will be millions of them around even after the revolution.
Some,probably most,I am sure could be neutralized and kept under control by a high tech,People’s armed self-defense militia force.
Some will never change,they will surely continue attack and sabotage the revolution and maintain secret clandestine criminal mafia type networks.
Communists besides being revolutionaries must also be defenders and protectors of the People..especially those who have been traditionally the most exploited,vulnerable and defenseless members of society..children and women.
The revolution will require a cultural revolution. I believe that if there is to be a revolution that the revolution should empower a special political entity,with full independent administrative and legal plenipotentiary powers as a mechanism of struggle against women and children’s oppression.
RedFly,if we ever successfully attain revolution,we can never ever allow,give the opportunity for capitalism to ever have a resurgence.Just look at what happened in Russia and China.This should be a huge lesson for us.
Revolutionary violence,mass executions of millions of confirmed capitalist and social criminal shill be all be the duty and responsibility of revolutionaries.
We destroy them or they destroy us.
As communists of course we should absolutely understand and embrace the role of revolutionary violence as a vital weapon of self-defense.I repeat,there is no way around it,there will be revolutionary violence in class warfare,and even more so in a post-revolutionary former USA.
Of course the enemy believes in violence as a weapon,and you can bet they will use all they have in order to regain power.
Eli M-H said
Oh boy. Gotta love the delusion swagger of the self-appointed revolutionary savior who takes “millions of executions” as a logical starting point for his “Cultural Revolution”. I realize that this grotesque fetishization of “revolutionary violence” has been a part of our movement for generations now, but it really has got to go. It’s an outlook that always leads to alienation and callousness, and in the unlikely event of actual revolution, blind terror.
chicanofuturet said
Eli M-H
“Oh boy. Gotta love the delusion swagger of the self-appointed revolutionary savior who takes “millions of executions” as a logical starting point for his “Cultural Revolution”. I realize that this grotesque fetishization of “revolutionary violence” has been a part of our movement for generations now, but it really has got to go. It’s an outlook that always leads to alienation and callousness, and in the unlikely event of actual revolution, blind terror.”
You’re wrong Eli..
ain’t got nothing to do with swagger…
Hardly being delusional,my outlook is based on historical materialism-real history,not on subjective liberal illusion sourced from ignorance,fear,naivety or comfortable idealism..
And as far as “alienation and callousness”,”blind terror” as you so describe,I do not make the foolish error of confusing terrorism with revolutionary self-defense,the People’s will which will demand supreme vigilance,this mandate I do not consider neither alienation nor callousness..
You also pessimistically pronounce ..“..and in the unlikely event of actual revolution…”
Well Eli, granted there is no guarantee of revolution that is true..
but I would like to respond to your pessimism with a quote I recall made in 1906 by Karl Kautsky which I believe rings true to this very day..
..”one cannot effectively struggle if victory is precluded at the outset.”
Gregory A. Butler said
Let’s keep it real.
Mao’s China had poverty and unemployment just like today’s China does (on balance, they probably had more than today’s China – they certainly had more hunger).
The Mao regime just did a better job of hiding it, thanks to the wonders of the Laogai forced labor camp system, always a good place to forcibly deport “undesirables” to pick rice, cabbage and potatoes for no pay at gunpoint behind a barbed wire fence.
The same goes with sex work – “the world’s oldest profession” existed there too.
The only thing was, the Hungweibing and the People’s Armed Police did a good job of keeping streetwalkers hidden in the back alleys (with periodic police sweeps and deportation of sex workers to the Laogai for good measure) – with the sex workers who served the men of the Party and state elite exempt from such harassment, of course.
Today, in a far less dictatorial China, that’s not possible anymore
On the real side, I’m sure a LOT of those beggars and sex workers are really happy about that – better to hustle on the streets of Beijing than to get sent down to work in the rice paddies!(ESPECIALLY for the sex workers, who not only had the forced labor to deal with, but also the very real possibility that their Hungweibing and/or PAP guards and/or their fellow Laogai inmates might force them to do sexual forced labor as well as the other kind.)
I know that’s not the romantic legend that some of us choose to believe about China, but I feel it’s always better to deal with the facts instead of the mythology.
On the question it always amazes me that otherwise intelligent revolutionary minded people, folks who are normally perfectly capable of understanding WHY workers are forced to take various types of often difficult and unpleasant jobs by what Marx called “the bony hand of hunger” suddenly get all moralistic and pearl clutching when the topic turns to sex work. When it comes to this topic feminists and communists can end up sounding as prudish as any Catholic priest or Mormon bishop (and almost as patriarchal.
Workers are forced by raw economic necessity to choose the highest paying possible work they can get – in some cases, this might mean using their sexuality in their job.
There’s a continuum there – ranging from the bartender who is expected to report to work in a low cut blouse and flirt with the male customers through exotic dancers who perform topless and give lap dances to customers on out though those who have actual sexual relations with the clientele.
Incidentally, it isn’t just cisgendered women who do these jobs – you might be surprised to know that there are a sizable number of men employed in the sex industry, as well as transgendered women who were born in a male body. Some folks don’t like to talk about that, because male sex workers don’t fit quite so nicely into the “innocent female victim” being preyed on by dirty evil men the way women sex workers do.
Also “slavery” is overstating the case – these are WORKERS getting paid, often at far higher pay scales than they would be able to receive if they were doing other jobs.
Also, in this age of the internet, many of them are self employed and seek out clients on the internet, rather than working for a pimp or a madam.The author speaks of sex workers with English language business cards and those who have relationships with hotel staff as a means of seeking out clients – those sound suspiciously like SELF EMPLOYED WORKERS (and rather educated ones at that – not everybody in China knows enough English or is familiar enough with American culture to be able to pull that kind of thing off) rather than the trembling victims of evil dirty pimps.
Let’s keep it real – if the “choice” is 60 hours a week working in the sweatshop for CNY 24 a day [that's about US$ 4] versus spending an hour with a foreign man for US$ 20 ₤ 15 or € 30, what would YOU do?
If you are interested in the struggles of sex workers AS WORKERS (including their battles with feminists who want to “protect” them out of a job) read Dr. Laura Maria Agustín’s “SEX AT THE MARGINS Migration, Labour Markets and the Rescue Industry”. She’s a London-based scholar, originally from Latin America, who has been researching sex work and sex workers for over 20 years.
Eli M-H said
So according to you, having a “historical materialist” outlook means concocting elaborate fantasy scenarios about “secret clandestine criminal mafia type networks” to justify your desire to “execute millions”? This is macho daydreaming disguised as “revolutionary vigor”.
Look, I appreciate and agree with your outrage towards the original article. And of course, there will be major forces of reaction and opposition in any revolution. But how is it helpful in the slightest to start setting execution quotas before there is even the rumbling of a leftist mass movement, let alone a revolutionary Communist one? Is our understanding of human behavior so simplistic that the only way we can think of to resolve all the incredbly complex contradictions of building socialism is a bullet to the head? It’s time to discard this outdated and ineffective methodology of the past.
Mike E said
Eli writes:
There is much to add and elaborate to this…. but for the moment, just saying “amen to that” will have to do.
jas bou said
Why do people automatically assume that what Chicanofuturet meant is some indiscriminate violence over a depoliticized and fearful populace? Maybe saying “Stalin was right” lead some to believe this but he later clarifies his point.
If there had been a communist overthrow of the Third Reich and something along the lines of what Chicanofuturet recommended happened, would the left see this as some macho fantasy come true or a legitimate and necessary means to safeguard the new revolution? I know some would say Nazi Germany is different. Is it really? If you were to condense all the crimes of US imperialism into a 12 year span, it would look very much like Nazi Germany and in fact would surpass it in its monstrosity. But since it’s been spread out over 200 years, some may feel that it goes down easier.
What if the top Nazi leadership was executed in this scenario? I’m sure some here would, on principal, condemn this in a kneejerk manner while never having criticized the Nuremberg trials that actually led to the execution of many top Nazis. It appears that some revolutionary minded people have internalized the notion that the king can burn down a village but the villagers are not allowed to light a candle.
I immediately understood what Chicanofuturet meant: the new people’s power must be defended by relying on the people, mass education, and other peaceful means but it needs to be BACKED UP by a ruthless force that will suppress enemies that are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It’s not an almost exclusive reliance on state power a la Stalin or based on some unscientific basis like Cambodia (city people v. country people).
In a country of over 300 million, there are going to be millions of these types. That’s not me, that’s math. Are we only allowed to suppress 9,999 of them and then stop because ten thousand becomes a politically incorrect and scary number? Might as well hand back power to the enemy.
PatrickSMcNally said
“it needs to be BACKED UP by a ruthless force that will suppress enemies that are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.”
If that’s all that one means then the pertinent reference point would be the Red Terror in the Russian Civil War (which Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin all willingly approved) but not the insane self-destructive bloodbath carried out by Team Stalin in the 1930s.
Eli M-H said
jas bou:
“In a country of over 300 million, there are going to be millions of these types. That’s not me, that’s math. Are we only allowed to suppress 9,999 of them and then stop because ten thousand becomes a politically incorrect and scary number? Might as well hand back power to the enemy.”
Who is this “we” doing the “suppressing”? From where do “we” derive the right and power to “suppress”? What does “suppress” even mean in this context? Who are these “types”?
Face it, none of us are capable of giving an accurate answer to any of these questions at this point. Tossing out random hypotheticals and then treating them as if they’re somehow revolutionary “laws” that must be “upheld” lest one be branded a liberal is a completely non-materialist was of thinking, in addition to being a total waste of time.
This is not about how terrible the US is (and it is terrible), or how many enemies “we” could conceivably have someday. It is about the fact that Revolutionary Communism is, for a variety of reasons, almost completely irrelevant as a political tendency in the US, and it is about the fact that we currently know NOTHING about the particularities of potential future revolutionary situations. Fantasy revolutionary dick-measuring does not illuminate, in addition to being totally pathetic.
chicanofuturet said
Eli,
Mockery is no substitute for history and substance.Your ad hominem trickery is just that,clever unsubstantiated sophistry meant to sway,fool and confuse idealistic,liberal,ignorant and confused minds
with anti-communist ideology and propaganda.You have nothing.
“Doubting the event of Revolution”..”Macho daydreams” “elaborate fantasies”…where have we heard those same tired old anti-communist themes before?
I’m sure such views are very valuable and agreeable additions to ruling class anti-communist propaganda,In that sense Eli is a very “useful” fellow.
Liberal platitudes and PC,sugar plum dreams of “nice” ruling class unicorns,peaceful revolution and harmonious co-existence are fine for children who do not know better.
But for communists dealing with the real world such dreams are wrong … and dangerous.
As for liberals and for the faint at heart,if the words and philosophical concepts of Marx-Lenin-Stalin-Mao concerning the role of communist revolutionary violence in class warfare between the proletariat and the bourgeoise disturb your comfort zone,then I would strongly suggest you clear your bookshelves,pick out and toss all your books on communism and revolutionary history out the window and into the garbage can,stick to reading bourgeoise liberal crap written specifically and purposely by bourgeois philosphers and historians who attempt to deny and subvert communist revolution,reject the role of violence in overthrowing the ruling class,advocating peaceful revolution,co-existence,and other such “daydreamer” bullshit which ultimately strenghten the ruling class and capitalism.
Eli states he doubts the event of actual revolution.
And coming from such a source of cynicism having been internalized,It doesn’t surprise me at all he would proceed to project such cynicism by extension ignoring communist history, trivializing real human suffering,cavalierly dismissing the destructive capabilities of organized reactionary capitalist criminals,make light of the very real potential for them continuing the horrors of capitalism in a post-revolutionary society by restoring capitalism.
Part of being a revolutionary is developing,debating competing visions,being pro-active,prepared.
Not being pessimistic,cynicallly precuding revolutionary victory.
It is my belief that here at Kasama we discuss not only the past and present but also the future of the communist project,of the revolution in all it’s respective phases,the dicatorship of the proletariat,defense of the revolution against all the corrosive forces of capitalism.
Mike E said
[moderator note: please avoid personal attacks and mockery.]
jas bou said
Eli M-H
Of course none of us will know how things will go down exactly. I know you say “none of us” but I feel compelled to remind that “none of us” includes you.
Though not what they use to be, Cubans sympathetic to the old regime, those who are willing puppets of US imperialism, and other anti-Castro types number in the hundreds of thousands. The Russians fought a civil war for years against the Whites. You had the Contras in Nicaragua. Millions of KMT settled in Taiwan.
Putting aside “fringe” groups like the Klan and neo-Nazis (who, incidentally, may increase in number in response to a revolution), you have millions of reactionaries of all different stripes: religious fundamentalists, anti-immigrant types, homophobes, Tea Partiers, cops, Islamophobes, to say nothing of well-funded “respectable” groups. And you have representatives of all these groups in the various branches of the military and organs of the state. I’m sure you know all this. These people number in the tens of millions currently.
That’s not dick-measuring, that’s math.
(By the way, I just gave you an opening. “I see! He’s not the macho swaggering tough guy leftist I thought he was. He’s instead a pseudo-intellect who justifies totalitarian crimes with the coldest of calculations and resorts to “reason’.” Run with it dude!)
I’m sure some of them would come around. I’m sure others will be paralyzed into inaction or apathy. What of those who don’t? I’m not referring to the blogger who wrote a poem criticizing the new government or any stereotyped victim of communism. How you suppose we deal with them? Ball is in your court. You already know my general thoughts.
I would like to be wrong though. I would prefer if the people who want to bring back the old regime after the revolution was just three guys. They’ll be arrested in the space of a few hours and the people’s power will live forever and ever happily ever after.
Eli M-H said
Chicanofuturet:
“Mockery is no substitute for history and substance.Your ad hominem trickery is just that,clever unsubstantiated sophistry meant to sway,fool and confuse idealistic,liberal,ignorant and confused minds
with anti-communist ideology and propaganda.You have nothing.”
This is completely substanceless. Why don’t you try actually quoting and dissecting the passages you’re referring to instead of just blithely straw manning me?
““Doubting the event of Revolution”..”Macho daydreams” “elaborate fantasies”…where have we heard those same tired old anti-communist themes before?
I’m sure such views are very valuable and agreeable additions to ruling class anti-communist propaganda,In that sense Eli is a very “useful” fellow.”
Nice snitch jacketing. Always a great way to shut down debate when you have nothing of value to say.
“As for liberals and for the faint at heart,if the words and philosophical concepts of Marx-Lenin-Stalin-Mao concerning the role of communist revolutionary violence in class warfare between the proletariat and the bourgeoise disturb your comfort zone,then I would strongly suggest you clear your bookshelves,pick out and toss all your books on communism and revolutionary history out the window and into the garbage can,stick to reading bourgeoise liberal crap written specifically and purposely by bourgeois philosphers and historians who attempt to deny and subvert communist revolution,reject the role of violence in overthrowing the ruling class,advocating peaceful revolution,co-existence,and other such “daydreamer” bullshit which ultimately strenghten the ruling class and capitalism.”
Again, you are simply talking past the argument, insulting me, and parroting re-heated platitudes. You are adding nothing to the debate.
“And coming from such a source of cynicism having been internalized,It doesn’t surprise me at all he would proceed to project such cynicism by extension ignoring communist history, trivializing real human suffering,cavalierly dismissing the destructive capabilities of organized reactionary capitalist criminals,make light of the very real potential for them continuing the horrors of capitalism in a post-revolutionary society by restoring capitalism.”
More nasty, substanceless straw manning. You don’t provide any quotes to support this because none exist.
“It is my belief that here at Kasama we discuss not only the past and present but also the future of the communist project,of the revolution in all it’s respective phases,the dicatorship of the proletariat,defense of the revolution against all the corrosive forces of capitalism.”
Again, WHAT REVOLUTION? There is barely even the groundwork for a leftist mass movement in this country, and you’re already convinced you’ve got the revolution “scientifically” figured out, right down the number of people to be executed! Dictatorship of the proletariat? So-called Communists can’t even agree on who the proletariat is, or if there even is one in the US! An actual Communist revolution in the US would be far more complex than anything any of us can currently imagine. There will be unique particularities and nuances that will require massive creativity, freethinking, and experimentation. Rigid dogmatism and religious reverence for the “Marx-Lenin-Stalin-Mao” classics will get us nowhere. Let’s not be little Wang Mings.
Red Fly said
Chicanofuturetense, comrade, I share your antipathy towards the class enemy and I appreciate very much your ability to see the nature of the enemy for what it is. And I admire your revolutionary vigor.
However, I’d like to urge you to think about this some more.
One relevant fact here is that there are 400 hundred individuals in this country who own as much combined wealth as the bottom 150 million. 400! Now, of course that doesn’t mean that only 400 people are our enemies, but I think you may be overstating the case when you say that there are millions of people we can, absolutely and without qualification, write off as counterrevolutionary terrorists.
There are a lot of people in this country who are in pain and suffer immensely under class oppression but who also, at this time, have backward views about this system and about revolutionaries. Some of those people at the Tea Party rallies, for example, are just ordinary working class folks who are angry and confused and saw an outlet for their anger in these demonstrations. A lot of them, if you listen to what they’re saying, don’t even have a clear idea of why they’re angry. I think a lot of these types can be won over in course of revolutionary struggle. And of course there are going to be die hard reactionary “patriot”-types amongst these people who are, without a shadow of a doubt, enemies. But let’s not play into the bourgeois left liberal game of saying these people are all racist scum. Again, a lot of people are just very confused and very angry.
Also, even if there are millions of people out there who we can identify as enemies after the revolution, I don’t think it follows that public executions for these millions are a solution that we should jump to embrace. I think these are the kinds of “solutions” that we as communists should be very, very cautious about endorsing. The last thing we want is to become new oppressors and I fear that a casual embrace of execution as a method leads us down that road.
I don’t doubt the need to defend the revolution with force. But let us make sure we stay on the road to human liberation rather than the road to bureaucratic state terror. I think history has shown that that’s a path towards capitalist restoration.
Eli M-H said
jas bous:
“I’m sure some of them would come around. I’m sure others will be paralyzed into inaction or apathy. What of those who don’t? I’m not referring to the blogger who wrote a poem criticizing the new government or any stereotyped victim of communism. How you suppose we deal with them? Ball is in your court. You already know my general thoughts.”
You’re asking me to come up with a blanket strategy to “deal with” a hypothetical group of people in a hypothetical situation? How could anybody answer such a question with anything approaching accuracy or certainty?
But since you’re demanding an answer, hypothetically I will not rule out the possible necessity of mass arrests and the suppression of rights in certain situations that can be resolved no other way. It would be naive and arrogant to think everything would, hypothetically, go off without a hitch, without a “settling of the accounts” on a mass scale. Perhaps, in a time of war, executions of certain individuals may become necessary to defend revolutionary gains. But I cannot imagine a time when an institutionalized policy of mass execution like the one you and chicanofuturet are groping at would be appropriate or justified. Ever.
But again, we are speculating about things we currently know nothing about. It is a waste of time.
Eli M-H said
Perhaps this discussion should be moved to it own thread, since it’s not really related to the original article.
jas bou said
Eli M-H,
I hate to split hairs and nitpick but here is what I said
“I immediately understood what Chicanofuturet meant: the new people’s power must be defended by relying on the people, mass education, and other peaceful means but it needs to be BACKED UP by a ruthless force that will suppress enemies that are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It’s not an almost exclusive reliance on state power a la Stalin or based on some unscientific basis like Cambodia (city people v. country people).”
I know Chicanofuturet said millions should be executed but what I mainly took from him/her is the need for state force in addition to, and in support of, peaceful methods to safeguard the revolution. Is that really so crazy? I differentiated this from Stalin and Cambodia and it should and must be different from those examples.
“In a country of over 300 million, there are going to be millions of these types. That’s not me, that’s math. Are we only allowed to suppress 9,999 of them and then stop because ten thousand becomes a politically incorrect and scary number? Might as well hand back power to the enemy.”
10% is a small percentage but as a percentage of the US population, that’s 30 million! That’s a lot of fucking people! Even 5% is 15 million.
I said “suppress” precisely because I feel methods should be kept open. If I meant “execute” I would have said it. That being said “execute” can be a form of suppression.
One final point:
I understand we won’t know what will happen till we get there but your scolding of others if they speculate and theorize is odd.
People who study prehistory will never witness it for themselves unless someone invents a time machine. ALL they can do is speculate and theorize. They can never really know to a certainty what happened, why it happened, etc. Furthermore, a lot of findings on prehistory have been cast aside or put into serious doubt by newer findings. Should their attitude be “Fuck it! We’re wasting our time studying these bones!”
chicanofuturet said
Eli
“Again, WHAT REVOLUTION? There is barely even the groundwork for a leftist mass movement in this country, and you’re already convinced you’ve got the revolution “scientifically” figured out, right down the number of people to be executed! Dictatorship of the proletariat? So-called Communists can’t even agree on who the proletariat is, or if there even is one in the US! An actual Communist revolution in the US would be far more complex than anything any of us can currently imagine. There will be unique particularities and nuances that will require massive creativity, freethinking, and experimentation. Rigid dogmatism and religious reverence for the “Marx-Lenin-Stalin-Mao” classics will get us nowhere. Let’s not be little Wang Mings.”
Eli,
Sorry buddy,but you still have nothing (other than some meaningless name calling and red baiting) substantial to contradict my position and outlook on the historic communist role of revolutionary violence which is one of the main tenets of communist ideology,more specifically,class warfare.
If you do not understand these historical ideas and concepts then I would be more than happy to teach you their meanings,that is,if you are honest and sincere in your willingness to learn.
I suspect the reason you don’t offer any substance is because you can’t.
You have no objective historical basis from which to base your argument upon.
Bourgeois Liberal idealism is a bankrupt philosophy and corrupt world view!
The last thing the ruling class wants people to understand and comprehend is that revolutionary violence class warfare is the most powerful weapon the People have at their disposal for overthrowing the capitalist state.
They want the people to reject revolutionary violence so as to weaken them,make them vulnerable to attack and destruction in any capitalist restoration.
What are communists to do? shut up and don’t talk to the People so as not to offend the ruling class or their elite liberal quislings?
Have communists become so gutless,weak that they are scared to death to discuss communist revolutionary violence.
Which brings me to mention comrade RedFlys statement…
“also, even if there are millions of people out there who we can identify as enemies after the revolution, I don’t think it follows that public executions for these millions are a solution that we should jump to embrace”.
Comrade RedFly,
go to Iraq,Afghanistan,Guantanamo,Pakistan,Egypt,Greece,China,Mexico,go almost anywhere in the world where the People are suffering agonizing oppression,exploitation and endless wars which make their lives a living hell of poverty starvation,pain and hopelessness.
Go ask them if they would like to see their capitalist and imperialist oppressors and tormentors publicly executed.
I think you both you and I know what will be their answers,
But what do we hear coming from the mouths of too many comfortable well fed well taken taken care of american communists???
Has this been deemed taboo by a shaky tame petty bourgeoise hesitant to anger the ruling class..is this a forbidden history to be locked up in the closet of fear?
I wholeheartedly disagree with Eli’s defeatist highly subjective analysis of groundwork for revolution in this country.
Contrary to his cynical and fatalistic evaluation of the possibility for revolution in the US,I see something entirely different taking place on the ground,beneath the surface in US society which opposes his de facto surrender to neo-liberal capitalism as truly being the “end of history”.
All great communist revolutions without exception,began relatively small then through constant revolutionary struggle, and violent class warfare grew in numbers and strength over time.
Our revolutionary struggle here in the US is no different..
There are hundreds of organized political struggles occuring locally and nationally, and thousands of progressive individual challenges to the capitalist system which rarely if at all ever receive publicity or attention.
All these individual struggles as tributaries of revolution have the potential to unite in a raging river of revolutionary struggle.
I think Eli as well as all of us would best be served by embracing the spirit of old Joe Hill’s famous saying..“Don’t mourn,Organize!
I challenge anyone to name me one revolution that did not begin with the condition so characterized….”..barely even the groundwork for a leftist mass movement..”
Read Engels “Anti-Duhring” and Mao “On Contradiction”-
{“In the process of practice, man at first sees only the phenomenal side, the separate aspects, the external relations of things. For instance, some people from outside come to Yenan on a tour of observation. In the first day or two, they see its topography, streets and houses; they meet many people, attend banquets, evening parties and mass meetings, hear talk of various kinds and read various documents, all these being the phenomena, the separate aspects and the external relations of things. This is called the perceptual stage of cognition, namely, the stage of sense perceptions and impressions. That is, these particular things in Yenan act on the sense organs of the members of the observation group, evoke sense perceptions and give rise in their brains to many impressions together with a rough sketch of the external relations among these impressions: this is the first stage of cognition. At this stage, man cannot as yet form concepts, which are deeper, or draw logical conclusions.”..
“The real task of knowing is, through perception, to arrive at thought, to arrive step by step at the comprehension of the internal contradictions of objective things, of their laws and of the internal relations between one process and another, that is, to arrive at logical knowledge. To repeat, logical knowledge differs from perceptual knowledge in that perceptual knowledge pertains to the separate aspects, the phenomena and the external relations of things, whereas logical knowledge takes a big stride forward to reach the totality, the essence and the internal relations of things and discloses the inner contradictions in the surrounding world. Therefore, logical knowledge is capable of grasping the development of the surrounding world in its totality, in the internal relations of all its aspects.” }
If you do not understand and cannot recognize the revolutionary process then I suggest you need to struggle harder, study revolutionary communist history,and yes ..that even includes even the works of Marx-Lenin-Stalin-Mao.
If you have any honest principled questions related to the issue under discussion of revolutionary violence I would be more than happy to try to answer them.
PatrickSMcNally said
JB: “The Russians fought a civil war for years against the Whites.”
That has at most an indirect relationship to the crazy purges of 1934-9. Trying to treat the latter as if they were on the plane as the Red Terror of the Russian Civil War is a sick apologia for a fit of lunacy which could have easily destroyed the USSR.
As I’ve noted before, and it definitely bears repeating when Stalin-apologetics appear, a more enlightened imperial policy followed by Hitler could have easily doomed the USSR. An attempt to promise “liberty for Russia” the way US imperialism likes to toss this around as a slogan could easily have ensnared many Russians into defecting to the Wehrmacht and tilted the war in the other direction. There were hundreds of thousands of Russians who fought with the Wehrmacht, even when Hitler refused to allow the creation of a Russian Liberation Army.
It was Hitler’s own racist arrogance towards Slavs which prevented this from being seriously exploited as a political asset and in fact lost the entire war for the Wehrmacht, as Germany’s blatant colonial aims forced Russians to fight behind Stalin even when there was some initial reluctance to do so. Stalin-apologists have always tried to cast this as if it were somehow evidence that the lunacy of the purges was justified and that somehow real traitors were found in these purges. But all that the facts show is that Hitler proved to be a more self-destructive leader than Stalin had already been and that, where Stalin had created some initial motive for Russians to perhaps welcome the Wehrmacht, Hitler effectively cancelled that and created a motive for Russians to unite behind Stalin.
None of this changes the fact that the 1930s-purges were a grossly self-destructive mess which could have easily spelled the doom of the USSR if its enemies had been more politically sophisticated. That is in no way comparable to the Red Terror of the Russian Civil War which happened alongside of the White Terror and even saw outbreaks of Green Terror. The problem of what to do in a chaotic civil war situation is completely different from launching purges in a settled society as existed in 1934-9. Rather than helping to preserve the USSR, Stalin’s crazy purges almost doomed it. Thanks that they didn’t should be given to Hitler, if anyone, not to Stalin.
Mike E said
In the French revolution, the Jacobins imagined that by cutting of the heads of the aristocracy they could end feudalism. And yet Napoleon emerged from within the revolution and crowned himself.
In the Soviet era, the leadership apparently believed that they faced vast conspiracies of fascist agents and that if they only killed them all they could consolidate socialism. And yet the reversal of socialism involved forces that emerged within the party (and within the forces who conducted and survived the great purges).
Ruthlessness and bloodletting are not the key ingredient in preventing capitalist restoration. Consciousness and popular agency are. That is why Mao conducted waves of “socialist education” accompanied by waves of popular mobilization to further the revolution.
Revolution does involve disempowering and politically dispersing the old reactionary forces. Intense episodes of revolutionary warfare does involve defeating armed enemies.
But it would be disastrous to imagine the building and consolidation of socialism as a long period of pursuit and execution of armies of political opponents. That is the wrong lesson to draw from the Soviet and Chinese experience.
In the process of liberation, the people will want and deserve punishment of some of the most egregious and notorious oppressors of the past (the klan, killer police, perpetrators of torture and brutality). But the trial and punishment of such people, and the delivery of justice to those they persecuted is a welcome and necessary episode in any revolutionary process, not the main ongoing means of stabilizing socialism.
In fact, the overuse of police and punishment (in the USSR and elsewhere) had the effect of driving the people themselves away from political life — and placing a cold chill over broad revolutionary initiative initiative and activism.
I have written three essays on this here on Kasama:
Mao Zedong on Political Executions: Heads Are Not Leeks
Mao & the Dunce Caps: Real Contradictions of Real Socialism
On Socialist Methods and the Stalin-Era Purges
Ruthlessness is a bad substitute for consciousness. And everyone knows it. A communist movement that has not learned these lessons well will not get a second chance within this new century.
jas bou said
PatrickSMcNally
Since I came here on the side of Chicanofuturet, I understand if you think our views are mirror images of each other. This is not the case. I merely said that I understand the need for state violence to safeguard a revolutionary government as a necessary compliment to the people defending their power in other ways. I’m not advocating a second Stalin casting wide nets on a frightened and disengaged population. I’m not advocating the killing fields.
I mentioned the Whites only to show that the US will similarly have millions of diehard reactionaries that a new revolutionary authority will have to deal with. And because there may be 500 million Americans by the time something kicks off in this country, the number of these people will grow substantially even if the remains the same as a percentage.
What of future capitalist roaders who want to take the country back? I’m not advocating mass executions necessarily but I would hope these folks would be neutralized in one way or another. Is that so crazy? Chicanofuturet said Stalin had the right instinct. How he acted on that instinct was fucked up and is subject to debate and critique. But I think the instinct was correct.
If the Soviet people were more in charge of defending and policing their gains, then Stalin may not have given in to these instincts. Who knows? The people were unleashed during the Cultural Revolution yet still were defeated. Perhaps if the Chinese state had been more instinctual and came down hard on the capitalist roaders, the socialist state would have survived Mao. Again, who knows? It’s obvious in retrospect that Deng and others like him were never going to come around. I’m sure there were some who saw this all the way back then and felt more appropriate measures should have been taken.
At the end of the day, I’m only advocating that the state assist the people in beating back capitalist restoration.
PatrickSMcNally said
> I’m only advocating that the state assist the people in beating back capitalist restoration.
But the original post had made an obfuscation between this and Stalin’s purges, which in fact did enormous damage to the defense of the USSR. Again, if one simply wants to discuss the possibility of terror being used in a revolution then there is the Russian Civil War as a topic always worth examining. But it is emphatically necessary to distinguish this from the purges of the 1930s.
PatrickSMcNally said
“If the Soviet people were more in charge of defending and policing their gains, then Stalin may not have given in to these instincts. Who knows? The people were unleashed during the Cultural Revolution yet still were defeated. Perhaps if the Chinese state had been more instinctual and came down hard on the capitalist roaders, the socialist state would have survived Mao. Again, who knows? It’s obvious in retrospect that Deng and others like him were never going to come around. I’m sure there were some who saw this all the way back then and felt more appropriate measures should have been taken.”
Well I’d agree that the Cultural Revolution didn’t really accomplish anything and I’d say that Albania probably was better off not bothering with it. But in regards to the USSR and the Great Purges, there is a different mechanism at work.
If Hitler had never invaded the USSR but had simply maintained a prolonged “cold peace” in eastern Europe with the Nazi and Soviet armies facing each other uneasily across the frontiers, as was the case in the later Cold War, then it is more likely that something similar to 1989-91 would have occurred in the 1960s at the latest. Hitler and Stalin could have both died of old age after a prolonged cold peace/war in eastern Europe, and things would have changed very drastically after that. The Third Reich did not have an ideological basis that was sufficient to last beyond Hitler (the way that the USSR lasted beyond Lenin) and if a protracted cold war in Europe had been followed by Hitler’s death then it is more likely that the National Socialist regime would not have survived. Perhaps something similar to Spain after Franco’s death would have followed.
On the other hand, the de-Stalinization measures launched by Khrushchev (such as setting Gulag prisoners free) might have come later than 1956, but the political impact would have been far more devastating. Without the victory in the Great Patriotic War, it is hard to see how the Soviet bureaucracy would have been able to sustain itself all the way into the 1990s. This is really the big difference between Russia and China.
If the Japanese invasion of China had occurred not in the 1930s but in the 1970s following the Cultural Revolution, then this would have greatly changed the calculus which allowed Deng to begin the restoration of capitalism. Since the GPCR came long after the war with Japan it was much more easy for Deng to win support within the party for introducing capitalism into China without appearing that he was betraying an earlier war effort. None of that implies that Stalin’s way offered any kind of answer for China (though I could understand if someone argued that Deng deserved a bullet in the back of his neck, as long we’re not talking about setting off on a wild hunt for Nazi agents ala 1937).
jfsp said
Someone wrote a comment under another article that I have not forgotten and stuck with me, remember what China did with the last emperor?
Miles Ahead said
There are symbols, and then there are symbols. And dressing up the revolutionary process, the “defense of the revolution” with bravado, with the proverbial “we” at the helm, is not only empty rhetoric but emblematic of just how complex making revolution, sustaining its gains and building socialism are.
Why has it been historically proven that the theory and practice of people’s warfare has been at least initially successful? It is because a relatively small group of revolutionary forces have broad popular support. That when the contradictions among the people have been handled more correctly, that support for revolution, or the continuation of the revolution, has deepened…not in one fell swoop mind you. Where are those millions in C.F. and others’ hypothetical scenario?
Yes, it is true, that reactionary forces will continue to try and reverse any revolutionary gains, and not without extreme violence. There’s a lot at stake for both them and the revolutionary forces and its allies. But the revolution has to go deeper and continue to dig deeper and actually continue to change things around on various levels (e.g. economically, ideologically, politically), in order to really defend the revolution; and to win over even a broader base and forces in the developing society. (Am not gonna get into the world situation and allies/enemies worldwide, but certainly this too has an effect.)
But…
There is a difference between “friendly neutrality” and “neutralizing”—yikes, millions.
And I think we need to look at some of the downsides of the attempts at revolution, or once initially victorious, how the divide between friendly neutrality and neutralizing whole sections of the population has been handled incorrectly. Things are often very muddled (and contradictory) in the course of making revolution…one day a middle peasant is giving sanctuary to guerrilla fighters, and the next day, because that same middle peasant might be acting out of fear, caught between his/her national army and state, and the revolutionaries, he can too easily be construed as “an enemy of the revolution” and executed…his whole family wiped out to be made an example of for anyone else seeming to “vacillate.” And sadly (yes, sadly) many of those who are not 100% on board (which is most of the people, let’s face it, but more so can unite with many aspects of the revolutionary program ), are not necessarily counter-revolutionary, but are viewed by some, as some sort of “revolutionary” collateral damage.
While there were undoubtedly excesses during the Chinese revolution, and subsequently the Cultural Revolution, mass executions was not the way Mao chose to go. There was both a reliance on the masses, as well as further training of them to “defend” the revolution and its gains. Instead of the May 7th cadre schools, the exposure of reaction (mostly embodied in the party and its leadership), the sending of urban “professionals” to the countryside, etc., had Mao and other revolutionary leaders chosen to simply execute thousands, who would have learned anything about the revolutionary politics and ideological struggles involved?
The portend of the necessity of executing millions smacks a lot of some revenge line, under the guise of defending the revolution, and ultimately will turn into its opposite…which is not to defend the revolution at all. (You could almost lift paragraphs of Mein Kampf and substitute the “vision” of the national “socialists” and the purity of the society Hitler envisioned, with some of the rhetoric herein.)
And while I appreciate the undoubtedly true warning signals of “revolutionary violence” continuing—how could it not? although the reactionary forces may themselves employ other means to wreck havoc with the revolutionary process, not just violence (and as has been pointed out, the revolutionary communists/forces may deploy other tactics and strategy as well)–the calling for the execution of millions, pretty cavalierly (and ultimately arbitrarily), in “defense of” and after a revolution that hasn’t even been waged yet, is not a revolution (nor playbook) I would defend…
rd13 said
One essential issue that is largely downplayed by many Leftists–especially in the West–is the role of America and its allies in subverting socialist/communist countries during the Cold War–and thus deliberately contributing to the self-destructive authoritarian nature of these governments.
This includes USA-instigated political destabilization campaigns/coup d’etats; economic warfare ranging from sanctions/embargoes to terrorist sabotage; and of course outright military aggression. It also includes ideological warfare like the selling of the “American way of life” from Hollywood to McDonalds.
The American agenda, as described by William Blum, was to destabilize, deform, and ultimately kill any alternative model that goes against the Anglo-American free market capitalist model.
http://killinghope.org/
In short, this was a pattern of American state terrorism that continues today.
While it is not an excuse for the authoritarian nature of governments found in nations like Russia, China, or elsewhere, this criminal record of American/Western terrorism significantly contributed to the self-destructive repressive policies of these countries … as it was designed to do.
Communist revolutions do not happen in a vacuum. They face real life threats and pressure from the capitalist world.
This issue is essential to any discussion of how revolutionary socialist and communist societies will be created and defended in the 21st-century.
PatrickSMcNally said
“the role of America and its allies in subverting socialist/communist countries during the Cold War–and thus deliberately contributing to the self-destructive authoritarian nature of these governments.”
The Roosevelt administration was on friendly terms with Stalin’s USSR during the time of the 1930s purges.
Red Fly said
Patrick (and Mike) is correct. There is a huge difference between the waging of revolutionary warfare and the setting up of some state terror apparatus after the revolutionary war is won.
I certainly don’t advocate “liberalism” towards die hard counterrevolutionaries. These types must be prevented, by any means necessary, from destroying the revolution. I don’t think anyone here is disputing that. But saying this is a far cry from asserting that the solution is public mass executions in the millions.
I don’t think calling people liberals for not immediately endorsing public executions in the millions is helpful. By that standard Lenin and Mao were almost Gandhian.
Obviously the oppressed people of the world often desire to take revenge against their oppressors. And in any revolutionary war situation there will certainly be some of that. But just because the masses want something doesn’t mean the masses are always correct in the most immediate sense. Sure, their desire justice is correct, but if that desire for justice spills over into demands for rape and pillage, should we just let the masses have at it? I think the role of a revolutionary party/organization is to channel the immediate demands of the masses into a overall orientation and strategy for liberation, not to simply indulge their immediate wishes. That’s what the mass line is all about, no?
dodge said
Well we can’t agree, all of us, even with the benefit of hindsight on events 80yrs ago. How much harder then to have been there and confront the problems
“Friend OR foe??” “Who goes there?” “SHOW YOURSELF!” A question as old as time….King Frederick the ‘GREAT’ of Prussia could joke he had 100 cooks and 20,000 spies in his army. Every Nazi invasion or further consolidation of Nazi influence in proto fascist regimes was aided by 5th column activities. A veritable box of tricks…well honed methods that had been tried and tested over centuries on all continents.
Churchill:
“The German government was in touch with important Russian personalities through the Soviet embassy in Prague. The plot aimed at overthrowing Stalin and introducing into Russia a new pro-German regime. Soviet Russia carried out a merciless but doubtless useful purge of political and economic circles. The Soviet army was purged of pro-German elements”.
A passage from Goebbels diaries 1943
“The Führer explained the case of Tukhachevsky and added that we were absolutely wrong if we thought Stalin would ruin the Red Army. It was the opposite that was true: Stalin got rid of all the opposition circles in the Red Army and thus succeeded in making sure there were no more defeatist groups in the Army.”
The British not a warrior nation or caste(not Gurkhas) had to be trained in the Home Guard numerous anecdotes training manuals survive to give some picture of what 5th columnist threat existed and how it was to be met. Stories from all ranks abound of their activities leading up to Dunkirk, in both France and Belgium.
The Battle of Cable Street saw off the home grown Nazi threat. The East End crushed them, destroyed their aurora of invincibility. It did not end there MORE AFFLUENT FASCISTS WERE SUBJECTED TO A WAR OF NERVES AT HOME AND WORK…..Hearses were ordered as were trucks of manure…obituaries in local papers.,tyres slashed, sugar in petrol tanks, rumours spread in middle class neighbourhoods, blackening their ‘good names’ all wore down the will to carry on with peddling filth.
Just left school in first job, we were subjected to constant teasing., sent on errands for hardboard softener or sky hooks. One gag always puzzled me, whenever I bent down to get stock from lower shelves….there would be a chorus “don’t bend over with GOLDIE about!!” He was an East Ender born and bred though more of a polished diamond.not one for tormenting. Curiosity got the better of me but it was weeks before anyone would tell me why. Goldie was to be avoided at all costs, whilst in a vulnerable position.. Apparently Goldie and some pals had cornered a man they had been following onto the top deck of a trolley bus, pushed the man over the seat in front pulling his coat over his head and trapped him in that position. a 1st world war bayonet was produced and rammed into his anus and they made off into the night. Not another one of their ghoulish stories I thought, but they were adamant. “yes..he was a Nazi !! you see?”…”if he was a nazi why didn’t they take him to police station?” They just laughed…it was before the war. HOW COULD THEY TELL HE WAS NAZI…did he have a German accent? Was he a paratrooper? What happened to the fellow? My mind was racing..now…I told them I did not believe a word…so they would tell me more.. They said you’ve seen the man…TICK-TOCK…”.Been in the looney-bin for 30years”.had to go for long walks so that the mechanical device they fitted would pass solids, it was powered by motion. It made a noise like a metronome….he would never go on the patient trips to the seaside if it meant getting on a bus……”Well he was a Nazi….YES HE WAS A NAZI,” we all responded…..
Nice old Mr Goldman””it took some years to get some perspective…poor old tick-tock…”BUT HE WAS A NAZI!!!!!!” Though kids were scolded if they gave him a Nazi salute.
chicanofuturet said
Comrade RedFly,
In prior posts I stated my position in response to various commentary..
here I repeat them..
“Yes,there will be other peaceful ways to defend the revolution,and they should be the primary means employed for
dealing with dangerous criminal political and social elements.”
“Political ideological struggle is not enough!
In order to destroy capitalist ideology you must destroy it at its very roots,political,social and cultural.
The level of people’s vigilance must always be high to identify,rehabilitate,punish or execute if needed forces and movements which want to restore capitalist robbery,tyranny,war,exploitation,rape.”
No where have I ever suggested condoning “rape and pillage” conducted by a revolutionary People’s defense force or Red Army.. as a matter of fact I would propose that anyone caught committing such crimes be executed.
I have much more confidence in the discipline and morality of the People and especially in a post-revolutionary situation I believe such incidents of rape and pillage committed by the People would be exceptionally rare.
Certain aspects of my definition of a Liberal,Bourgeois Liberalism,amongst others,include the characteristics of hypocrisy and cowardice.
There is a a great difference between righteous revolutionary violence,self-defense and the bourgeois concept of violence.
IMHO, a Liberal is someone who in a wartime situation would choke,refuse to pull the trigger in revolutionary self-defense.A person who would oppose killing and executing armed enemies based on liberal Bourgeois morality.
The very definition of “class warfare” implies both violence and militant warfare,as they are both key components of to it’s inner ideological structure..
The military component of class warfare not only “calls” for “executions” …(euphemisms for “war”..”killing”)….but in order to attain victory such efforts would require executing (killing) as many armed criminal class enemy aggressors as possible…(millions?)
Just an observation..It’s amazing how the Liberal mentality can handle the capitalist ruling classes having for centuries systematically “calling” for the execution,slaughter,rape,exploitation,and robbery of countless millions( billions) of people of color,the poor and oppressed through wars and exploitation.
Yet when it comes time to wage revolutionary violence in defense of an “envisioned” (and that’s all it is at this point.It shall be the task of history to decide whose vision was most approximate) revolution,bringing about righteous revolutionary justice, Liberals become nervous,hesitant,protective,fearful,wary of shedding the blood of those who shall make up the vast majority of an armed reactionary counter-revolutionary army…and let’s be honest here and tell it like it is..were talking about die hard white racist counterrevolutionary reactionaries.
“Public” is just another word for the People. And If the people’s justice demand public executions of war criminals than I think such executions would be correct and righteous.
Just one (of millions) example of why I believe the People would desire public execution of criminals.
An account of the cold blooded murder of nine year old Brisenia Flores and her father Raul,the non fatal shooting of Brisenia’s mother Gina:
“As a wounded Gina Gonzalez played dead on the floor of her mobile home in Arivaca, Arizona, in May 2009, she silently told herself to “stay real calm.” Her goal, Gonzalez told a Tucson jury on Tuesday, was to survive so she could save her 9-year-old daughter from the tall intruder in blackface who had already shot Gonzalez twice and killed her husband, Raul Flores. The killer “was all out of bullets,” Gonzalez testified, so he reloaded as her child, Brisenia Flores, pleaded for her life. Then Gonzalez heard two shots, and from the corner of her eye she saw her daughter’s body “fall back on the couch.”
If war criminals,social criminals are found guilty in a court of the People’s Justice I would not oppose public executions of Minutemen type murderers.A Liberal would oppose the death penalty for such criminals.
I apologize if the tone of my post,my vision of a post-revolutionary US is apocalyptic,but then yet again haven’t all great revolutions been apocalyptic?
As to “visions” of a post-revolutionary (formerly USA),
I have great faith in the correctness of my vision.I believe that I have a correct understanding and yes intuition of the true nature of the beast racist,capitalist imperialist USA.
This is the USA..the beast,heartless,cold blooded,well armed,extremely deadly,vicious and violent,it will not hesitate to kill millions as it has already done in the past many times,it has no compunction at all in waging an all-out genocidal war against the People.
We live in the belly of the beast
….I think too many liberal,progressive left,communists,vastly..and I mean vastly ..are uncomprehending,greatly underestimate the profound unfathomable evil and destructive nature of the ruling class,it’s class defenders and loyalists who will go down fighting with them..and yes,I believe there are millions of them who will fight to the death..
jfsp said
I read an article today on CNN that there is a school in Beijing that teaches women on how to marry rich men. How to act, pour tea and even read facial expressions to tell if the men are lying. Oh how far they have fallen.
PatrickSMcNally said
“a Liberal is someone who in a wartime situation would choke,refuse to pull the trigger in revolutionary self-defense.”
This type of argument would have some relevance if the discussion were focused upon Leon Trotsky’s book TERRORISM AND COMMUNISM: A REPLY TO KARL KAUTSKY. It has absolutely no relevance to any meaningful analysis of the purges of 1934-9. Trotsky’s book actually was written precisely to make this kind of point in rebuttal to Kautsky. The fantasy charges of Trotsky as part of a Nazi conspiracy which Stalin in the 1930s demanded that the NKVD should somehow “prove” are a different animal altogether.
chicanofuturet said
Patrick
just as an aside….
IMHO,Leon Trotsky was a great revolutionary and communist.
I have profound respect for “The Prophet”.
Having said that,If I may,I would like to post a little history regarding certain events which occurred in Russia during the post revolution civil war…
Trotsky, the towering historian of the Russian Revolution as well as its co-leader, describes the conditions in the summer of 1918, at the time of this execution, in his autobiography, My Life.
“All the aftermath of the war was then just beginning to make itself felt…. One wondered if a country so despairing, so economically exhausted, so devastated, had enough sap left in it to support a new regime and preserve its independence. There was no food. There was no army. The railways were completely disorganized. The machinery of state was just beginning to take shape. Conspiracies were being hatched everywhere.”
In mid-1918, only the first steps had been taken to build the Red Army. The counterrevolutionary forces were stepping up their campaigns, in growing cooperation with the imperialist capitals of Washington, London, Paris, Berlin and Tokyo. The Japanese attacked Siberia and occupied Vladivostok. The Germans occupied all of the Ukraine, the Crimea, and the coasts of the Black and Azov Seas. The British, French and Americans landed at Murmansk.
The Czech Legion, formed earlier in the war by prisoners of war who were eager to fight against the Austro-Hungarian Empire, were now stirred into rebellion against the new Soviet power by rumors that they were going to be extradited to Germany. The Czechs made common cause with the White Guards under the command of Admiral Kolchak, and these forces directly menaced the Revolution by occupying huge sections of central Russia, including Samara, Ufa, Simbirsk and Ekaterinburg.
Ekaterinburg was where the Czar and his family were being kept in internment. The Bolsheviks had proceeded quite objectively up to this point against the old royal family. There were plans to set up a revolutionary tribunal to try the Czar. The advance of the Czechs and Kolchak created a new and very dangerous situation, however. The Bolsheviks feared, with good reason, that Nicholas II or his family might be rescued and utilized to rally and unite all the forces of the counterrevolution. As Trotsky later wrote,
“The civil war front was taking more and more the shape of a noose closing ever tighter about Moscow.”
The decision was therefore taken to execute the Czar and his entire family.
Trotsky discussed the fate of the Czar in entries in his diary from April 1935. He explained that the executions took place when he was at the front, in this most critical period of the Civil War. He found out when he returned to Moscow that the decision had been made by the Bolshevik leadership under Lenin.
“The decision was not only expedient but necessary,”
Trotsky wrote. “The severity of this summary justice showed the world that we would continue to fight on mercilessly, stopping at nothing. The execution of the Tsar’s family was needed not only in order to frighten, horrify, and dishearten the enemy, but also in order to shake up our own ranks, to show them that there was no turning back, that ahead lay either complete victory or complete ruin.”
This was not the first time that such measures of revolutionary terror had been required in history, and it had nothing to do with acts of individual terror, which Marxists irreconcilably oppose. Extraordinary measures are sometimes needed in civil war conditions. Without the ruthless measures of the Bolsheviks, the counterrevolution would have triumphed, with incalculably tragic consequences for the worker and peasant masses. The Bolsheviks were fighting an international counterrevolutionary conspiracy, in which all the imperialist powers, including the United States, were determined to strangle the Revolution at birth. The Bolsheviks were no more “immoral” than Abraham Lincoln, under whose command General Sherman marched through Georgia in 1864 in a campaign of calculated and ruthless destruction designed to demoralize and shatter the Confederacy.”
rd13 said
“We live in the belly of the beast
….I think too many liberal,progressive left,communists,vastly..and I mean vastly ..are uncomprehending,greatly underestimate the profound unfathomable evil and destructive nature of the ruling class,it’s class defenders and loyalists who will go down fighting with them..and yes,I believe there are millions of them who will fight to the death..”
Like most of the ersatz left in the West, the American left in particular is mainly composed of a very fringe group of middle class (White) intellectuals or abor aristocrats. They are not the proletariat, though they may posture as its champions.
The lives of this American Left are that of relative privilege and comfort compared to those underneath them–whether that be undocumented Latin American migrant workers in the USA or the billions of poor in the Third World.
In this concrete way, they are not much different from the rest of Middle America–despite their Marxist rhetoric.
The US Left does not fully understand–or, more likely, simply doesn’t want to admit–the utter ruthlessness of the America-led imperial system that they live in because ultimately they materially benefit from this system compared to the billions of people in the Global South.
Their American/Western imperial privilege is blinding.
dodge said
Rd13….First off I would like to offer up 1 cheer for prosperity. It does seem to have a bad reputation in some quarters. Boo to poverty. I have tasted both. Looking at it within a nation over time it’s a relative concept. Corrosive. Inequality saps, addles blights lives. Equality makes a country strong. Preaching at individuals is next to useless. It has been tried many times by clergy, do-gooders, radicals all to no effect. So next on the agenda might be find somebody to blame. Parents? Teachers? young people? Blacks? Workers? backward immigrants?…..genetics..?..the list is endless. Better to review just where the social pain and exclusion is emanating, the better to improve the social environment, quality of life for all. Inequality has given us towering levels of mistrust of sections of class, race obsession, illness, status insecurity, violence.
Equality is good…for women and children, paid maternity leave is a good start to life.
Drug use and mental illness are less common in more equal societies; so are teenage births and divorce. More equal countries have shorter working hours.
As UNICEF found in 2007, Britain had the worst child welfare of the 21 countries it studied. 22% of children live in relative poverty, compared to just 10% in Scandinavian countries
Unequal is punitive, over 350 serving life sentences for shoplifting in California.NOW THAT IS A CRIME…… Each day 40 people are imprisoned for shoplifting in Britain. American budget for prisons has risen 6 times faster than spending on schools, since 1980.
If by magic we in Britain had the equality levels of Finland ,Norway, Sweden or Japan, then mental illness, teenage births, obesity, imprisonment rates and murders would all be halved. We would live an extra year and enjoy 7 weeks extra holiday.
Why do some countries achieve more for their citizens? Reducing inequality in health or educational performance of school children, and yet another for raising national standards of performance? Reducing inequality is the best way of doing both, by far.More equal societies also have more social mobility: of eight developed countries, the USA had least social mobility. US bankruptcy rates rose most in those states where inequality had risen most. THIS MUST GIVE FOOD FOR THOUGHT……EVEN THE MOST BACKWARD AMONGST US MUST HAVE AT LEAST A FLICKER OF ENLIGHTENED SELF INTEREST. See how a fairer society might play out so that we might enjoy time on the planet allotted to us.
Paid paternity leave was fought for by our union. Legislation followed. A 35 hr week won If we all want equality then all must work for it and defend gains made. A tiny minority bars the road to us, lets be clear about that. Stand up to the rich. There is much work needs doing and no shirking of responsibility . Voting and waiting for government to intervene is a sham. Join recruit and build strong unions. There is nobody out there who can or wants to do it for us.
As for unequal nations AT HOME, they do tend to have a bellicose attitude to other countries. Better to mask the inequalities at home. Witness the USA and UK. ORGAN GRINDER and his MONKEY causing mayhem around the globe.
Sue Wael said
One of the reasons why the struggle for women’s liberation should be fought alongside the struggle for national liberation. Private property and women’s oppression are so intimately linked that the restoration of one is the restoration of the other. All revolutionaries should be aware that revolutions are not meant to replace one power clique with just another power clique, no matter the rhetoric.