May the revolution spread to Palestine and succeed in toppling the faux, zionist entity.

"the faux, zionist entity."

It's a state. It has an armed body of men with the exclusive right to use force (army, police, airforce, courts, prisons, etc).

It's a bourgeois state and communists wish for revolutions to overthrow bourgeois states.
It's a state which bases access to rights and privileges of full citizenship on race/religious background. Communists (and even liberals) are opposed to that.

But not wanting it to be a state is not the same as it not being a state. It's delusional to think otherwise.

As Amilcar Cabral used to admonish: "Tell no lies; claim no easy victories."

And not acknowledging the fact of statehood only in the case of Israel (as opposed to, say, in regards to France, Canada, Cameroon or Japan) is hard to justify on any grounds other than anti-Jewish bigotry.

'israel', is the only 'state/country' in the world that does not have declared borders; which makes it an illegitimate, faux, zionist entity.

It's not anti-Jewish to point out the obvious; how can an entity expect to be recognized unless it declares its borders?

Of course, 'israel' doesn't declare its borders because of its delusional dogma of planning and acting on creating "the greater israel'.

Yes, we're opposed to the Zionist project -- greater Israel, lesser Israel, whatever.

It happens to have control of an actual state right now. Really. It's not a faux airforce that bombed Gaza and they aren't faux prisons incarcerating militants. They are real.

Really.

Wishing it were not so or coming up with rhetorical devices that ensure no member of the particular working class I engage with most regularly (ie that of the USA) will do anything other than refuse to engage seems self-defeating to me.

I'll let you have the last word, Angel, if no one else wants to get tangled in this thread since the actual article is insightful and useful in trying to understand the political (and material) space that the Egyptian uprising may create in Palestine.

I don't believe the anti-South African apartheid movement ever denied the existence of a South African state. In fact, the existence of a South African apartheid state was exactly the problem confronting the movement.

Redflag, I have two (sets of)questions for you:

1) Do you believe Saudi Arabia is a state? Was Egypt under Mubarak a state? If they are, why is Israel not?

2) If you think Israel (or Saudi Arabia or Egypt for that matter) is not (are not) a state do you think Marx's definition (that I referred to in my first post) of what constitutes a state was lacking in some way? Is that based on your understanding of the development of imperialism in some way that includes neo-colonial governments like those running most of Africa (for example) and historic settler projects (e.g., Canada, the US, Australia..) as states but not Israel. Please explain.

Redflags,

We both acknowledge that Israel is a state (we even agree on what type of state). I think the traditional demand is for a democratic, secular socialist federation of the Middle East as opposed to hoping for a bourgeois democratic republic. But bourgeois non-racialized democratic republics would be an advance in the region for sure.

You seem to want to privilege the use of the word "entity" instead of "state" except when pressed to the wall even though you acknowledge that Israel is a state. I find that silly to be honest and tactically isolating without any upside.

You say "the" when I would say "a" a fair amount. Letting the despotic Arab regimes off the hook doesn't not seem internationalist to me or strategic (see article to which this thread began in response). A free Palestine probably depends on the ability of the Arab street (as well as the Egyptian army) to push Arab governments into supporting anti-colonial efforts of Palestinian liberation forces.

You seem also to be arguing with a straw man from time to time. No one in this discussion has argued that Israel is
&lt;<a>&gt;

Somehow I find it hard to imagine that you or Angel have ever spent any time arguing that Jews should be able to live free and participate fully without any discriminatory barriers in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait et al. The Bolsheviks (pre-Stalin and Soviet capitulation to zionism) were solid opponents of anti-semitism in practice. Absent a left that gets that, Jews en masse will have little ability to imagine a survival strategy that doesn't depend on a zionist garrison state allied to some imperial bully or other. That doesn't mean that Jews have a right to that imagination but I'm less concerned with imagined moralities than I am with strategic visions of victories. A credible internationalism as a material force that values Jewish life, most Jews will be allied with the side of reaction (at best liberals everywhere but Palestine).

Doc..come on man get off it..no one here is dissing Jews or the Jewish faith.As a matter of fact if you read the posts here on Kasama you will see that we spend a hell of a lot more time criticizing Islamic fundamentalism than Judaism as Zionism.
So,Please don't bait us with insinuations of anti-semitism..
I for one am absolutely opposed to any harm or destruction coming to the Jewish people no matter where that source may originate.
I think most of us here want what I believe you also desire..that is a peaceful middle eastern region guided by the principles of democracy and socialism,where people can have the opportunity to live in peace and develop their abilities to the fullest extent without the agonizing stress of death,war and conflict constantly hanging over their heads like the Sword of Damocles....
I have no doubt in my mind that if this were to ever be achieved that the genius of the middle east would explode in a
tsunami of creativity and economic development that would rival any other region on earth..

&gt; Dictatorship for 80 million Egyptians so Israel can ethnically cleanse Palestine in the name of Jews?

To be fair, that is not what this exchange began over. It began over whether or not it made sense to classify the Zionist state as "faux" (i.e., false, fake) as opposed to something not such. Things seem to have wondered away from that.

I hear the Mubarakites started firing on the people before dawn in Tahrir Square.

This is for them, and for all the people who are fighting for their rights in the Middle East:

People Have The Power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i54t4rrS950 />
Lyrics:

I was dreaming in my dreaming
of an aspect bright and fair
and my sleeping it was broken
but my dream it lingered near
in the form of shining valleys
where the pure air recognized
and my senses newly opened
I awakened to the cry
that the people / have the power
to redeem / the work of fools
upon the meek / the graces shower
it's decreed / the people rule

The people have the power
The people have the power
The people have the power
The people have the power

Vengeful aspects became suspect
and bending low as if to hear
and the armies ceased advancing
because the people had their ear
and the shepherds and the soldiers
lay beneath the stars
exchanging visions
and laying arms
to waste / in the dust
in the form of / shining valleys
where the pure air / recognized
and my senses / newly opened
I awakened / to the cry

Refrain

Where there were deserts
I saw fountains
like cream the waters rise
and we strolled there together
with none to laugh or criticize
and the leopard
and the lamb
lay together truly bound
I was hoping in my hoping
to recall what I had found
I was dreaming in my dreaming
god knows / a purer view
as I surrender to my sleeping
I commit my dream to you

Refrain

The power to dream / to rule
to wrestle the world from fools
it's decreed the people rule
it's decreed the people rule
LISTEN
I believe everything we dream
can come to pass through our union
we can turn the world around
we can turn the earth's revolution
we have the power
People have the power ...

patti smith, the last celebrity veteran of nader's 2000 campaign not to desert.

I found an article I wrote about a year ago:

Israel and legitimacy

According to merium-webster.com - the definition of genocide is: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

After WWII, the Zionists pressured the newly formed United Nations to create what is now known as the State of Israel. However, most people are not aware of the fact that the United Nations passed resolution 181 (a partition plan for Palestine) in the United Nations General Assembly – a non-binding assembly, unlike the United Nations Security Council – whose resolutions are binding.

So, the question of Israel’s legitimacy has remained due to the lack of the bill passing through the UN Security Council for a vote.

Zionists such as the notorious Irgun gang, amongst others, systematically ethnically cleansed Palestinians through genocide by using extreme terrorist tactics which have not abated since Israel’s inception. A recent example was seen in Gaza during “Operation Cast Lead”.

The lingering question of Israel’s legitimacy remains: Did the United Nations General Assembly have the legal right to create the State of Israel by passing bill 181?
The answer is a most definite no.

As stated earlier, the resolutions passed by that body of the UN are not binding and therefore are simply suggestions or recommendations which then pass on to the UN Security Council for a vote, which never happened with bill 181.

The Zionists rabidly acted on resolution 181, and the British who had ruled Palestine - irresponsibly did not do anything to stop the Zionists from their genocidal rampage of what is known as the Nakba or Catastrophe by the Palestinians and known as Israeli Independence by Israelis.

Is self proclaimed Independence based on genocide via ethnic cleansing a legitimate Independence or is it a war crime and a crime against humanity?

Recent International warrants for the arrests (issued by the Hague) of over 100 Israeli politicians (Such as Tzipi Livni, Ehud Olmert, etc.), generals and others involved in war crimes having to do with the crimes against humanity during “Operation Cast Lead” are a reminders of the lingering doubts of creating a state that did not have the approval of a legitimate body that has the credibility of binding resolutions which are recognized by International law, thus, putting the focus, once again, on the legitimacy and existence of the Zionist State.