- Let’s overthrow the puppet government and throw the troika out of Greece!

- Greece will not become a protectorate!

- No consensus without Democracy and Independence!

SOVEREIGNTY....yer just don't know how good it is , until yer lost it.....Slam the door shut on those pilferers

Newsflash :
PapaMasturboiu apparently dissolved part of the Greek Military High command yesterday ... The western 'free' press sais nothing about it, only from Greece and some Labour-affiliated newslets.

Could this be a coup in the making ? 1976 all over again ?

Any Greeks around here know anything about this ?

I found this : http://wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/pers-n03.shtml Actually some Greeks gave me the link.

Apparently, after talking to many friends in Greece, many people there were completely oblivious to these facts about the Greek Military.

Again, any Greeks here care to comment ?

There is almost a total blackout, other than nauseating propaganda of "GREECE CHOOSES DEMOCRACY, WILL VOTE FOR BAILOUT!"

a good piece by two members of OKDE-Spartakos on the recent two general strike days: http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article2360

I've always been a little curious about this; can Kasama's enchantment with the KOE be explained by the latter's proclaimed Maoist influence? Because, rhetoric aside, they are a part of the left coalition involved with bourgeois parliamentary reformist politics and I've always found it a bit odd that their material keeps popping up here.

I have read that pamphlet and one thing jumped out at me: the call for a non-socialist revolution and a "Chavez-type leader" for "some time" that would pull the Greek nation-state out of the EU/IMF and presumably take the reins in imposing austerity. This strikes me as an explicitly counter-revolutionary sentiment, one which seeks stability under state-capitalism, reinforcement of the law of value and the continued imposition of wage labor on the working class.

Even this latest critique of SYRIZA raises all sorts of suspicions; Their appeals to nationalism are nauseating and there seems to be no talk of doing away with capitalism while they frame the problem as the Greek people being subjugated to 'foreign' powers. In fact their calls for 'self-sufficiency' and 'genuine democracy' are a little concerning coming from a party of Stalin-era nostalgists...

Yes, but they ARE 'subjugated' by foreign powers. 99999 out 100000 people out there will more likely respond to a nationalist framing of the problem than a communist one. That is the sad truth. When push comes to shove, westerners revert to technofascist white supremacist grandeur delusions. The only thing that pushed it back was hyper-capitalism and cheap imaginary money for everybody, while the rest of the human and natural world footed the real costs. Now when (predictably) capitalism ran into the inevitable ditch and the imaginary money that fueled 20+ years of consumerism and absolute individual freedoms vanished, naturally the typical westerner can't accept that there is no divine or 'inalienable' right to consume 12-40 times more energy per capita than the non-western world. Most people out there, in the western countries, including many in the OWS and like movements, don't want 'peace' or 'sustainability', they want back to 2007, when you could consume cheap crap without any worries. This happens ALL over the western world. Including in America. It is in your nature. You did not 'get over' the virulent nationalism and white supremacist delusions, hyper-capitalism simply drowned it in cheap cash. Now the cash evaporated and it is time to get back to your old ways. You can talk all you want about capitalists and politicians whipping up nationalism, but, ultimately, each of the "99%" is a human with a conscience. Right now, the well educated, well fed, well clothed and well shelterd europeans think that greeks are stupid lazy bums that should be made to pay their 'debt' ... Setting aside what is said in the press, for one go take a look at vaguely political discussions on random internet forums, on whatever topic, from computer games to agricultural know-how, when the discussion touches the 'greek debt crisis' there isn't a SINGLE person on that forum that does not vomit the same propaganda about greeks being lazy bums. I have surveyed hundreds and hundreds of forums in the last 3 weeks, in 7 languages, all the same uniform indoctrination.

So, in a nutshell, the only thing westerners can appeal to for social cohesion in times of crises IS nationalism. Maybe in US fanatic religion can trump nationalism, but in Europe ( western and eastern ) it can't. If westerners weren't technofascist white supremacists, but humane, peace loving people, concerned with social and moral values, Libya would not have happened, Iraq would not have happened, and the 2008 crisis would not have happened. Take away the endless cash that binds together a vast collection of hedonsit automatons in the western civilization and the only thing left as a social cohesion device is your nationality. Race or religion differences can't be used BETWEEN westerners, but spoken language and arbitrary geographical birth location will do just fine. Just wait and watch. The real solution to the 1930 crisis was World War 2. The real solution to the 2008 crisis will be another world war. And, like then, the bulk of the masses will jump at it head first.

So, whether you ( or I for that matter ) like it or not, nationalism is a VERY VALID psychological tool for group cohesion. The fact that they ( Greeks ) are subjugated by foreign powers is also a VERY VALID. They are not pulling shit out of their asses, this is not some right-wing invention, but a real, verifiable ( in the scientific sense of the word ) fact.

Also, as much as we all would like to wake up tomorrow and find out that 99% of the population finally 'gets it' about capitalism and is willing to take the individual and collective sacrifices to move the fuck away from it once and for all, but, again, the truth, as a verifiable phenomena in society, is that the vast majority of people are very hostile to communism or like alternatives. The truth is that most of the westerners are in the position of the intellectual and managerial classes in a capitalist society when looked at from a global perspective. The proletariat that bares the real costs of the western way of life, with all the self attributed 'inalienable rights', freedoms and level of consumption, this proletariat is the 3rd world. You moved all your hard, manual labour, all the physically degrading work far away where you don't see it and its human and ecological consequences. On a global scale, the bulk of the western population is the managerial and intellectual class allied with the capitalist class in exchange for the benefits of the system. The working class toils in shit holes far away from you freedom laden eco pastures without any kind of real social/political interaction with you. Actually, it is worse, since you see your selfs as the owners of an 'intellectual capital' that makes up the fabric of your civilization : your technological and social advances that you impose by force on the global proletariat. How is it different from piss poor colonialism when you impose, by immense violence, the crown jewel of the western social technologies : representative democracy. Anyone with a working neuron can see that it does not work and it never actually worked. Yet, left and right, you all jump and cheer for violent butchery in order to force non-westerners to accept your system of beliefs - and, yes, it is a fucking belief, because in science, when FACTS contradict reality, you go back and re-asses and modify your 'theory'. In belief systems, what is given, is given. It is an ultimate, unquestionable, unprovable fact. Vote after vote after vote your system fails with 100% accuracy, yet your solution is MORE VOTE! Bomb and maim all over the planet so everybody VOTE!
The truth is that nobody forced you to drive in gigantic cars, to eat meat 3 times/day, every day, and to engage in utterly irresponsible consumerism. By the time the system reached a 'critical mass' and put these things 'on the table' there were already institutions and moral values in society to allow you, individually and collectively, to CHOOSE. No capitalist shot your children for riding the bus instead of owning an individualist, social penis enlarging tank. You chose, and we all see the results. The problem with this thinking is that there are peoples ( as in societies, not individuals ) who actively refuse and fight the imposition of there 'benefits' of your type of civilization that supposedly 'make life easy'. Well, fuck, we know were the real costs of your 'easy life' are dropped. The planet isn't going to shit because a handful capitalists hoard virtual money, but because the majority of the western population ( the 99% ) choose freely to drive alone in fucking tanks. You choose not to prosecute your freely elected leaders, you choose to support butchery after butchery because you know that, without these, you will have to clean your own shit, pick your own tomatoes, destroy your own environment and dig your own mines. No, you are the intellectual and managerial class of the planet.

Wait and see when US and Israel bomb Iran and, like Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan before, the bulk of the western population will cheer and go along with it and will feverishly perform intellectual labour to justify it. Humane doesn't mean you care as long as you can consume as much as you like ( or 'need', as you put it ). Proof of this: even at the peak of your system, before the crisis, when the sky was the limit, whenever there was a tragedy in the world, westerners, on average donated about 3-8% of their income, while the poor of the world, the real proletariat that makes your way of life possible, donated on average 20-50%. Where is this innate goodness and humanity of the westerner ? "The people will do the right thing!" Fuck no. That is incontestable PROOF, in the scientific sense of the world, that it is just western liberal propaganda, the same kind of fascist white supremacism of your absolute goodness, maybe misguided sometimes, at work again and again. Another incontestable PROOF is none of your freely elected butchers who are, in any possible social dimension, worse than any of the 'dictators' you rush to remove in 'humanitarian intervention', none of them have been EVER prosecuted. Are these the behaviors of 'humane', 'just', 'civilized' people ?

Greeks are doing that the rest of Europe and America is doing : reverting back to what they know best.

El Burro writes:

<blockquote>I have read that pamphlet and one thing jumped out at me: the call for a non-socialist revolution and a “Chavez-type leader” for “some time” that would pull the Greek nation-state out of the EU/IMF and presumably take the reins in imposing austerity.</blockquote>

El Burro, I find your comments seriously confused. The discussion in the pamphlet you refer to is a discussion of what KOE <i>suspects are how things are developing.</i> It is a discussion of what the most likely of a series of possible scenarios is. Other scenarios include a fascist military coup, or the possibility of uniting the squares for a revolutionary seizure of power, and the possibility of governing the country through the squares (which KOE members advocate!).

The truth is KOE actually does not have a set view on the road to socialism, and it is still very much debated within their movement. This I will come back to.

But I will also mention that when you write about "taking the reins of imposing austerity," this is precisely wrong, and I wonder if even deliberately so. KOE advocates a revolutionary expulsion of the entire Greek government, the IMF, and the EU from the country, and the cancelling of all such debts.

<blockquote>Even this latest critique of SYRIZA raises all sorts of suspicions; Their appeals to nationalism are nauseating and there seems to be no talk of doing away with capitalism while they frame the problem as the Greek people being subjugated to ‘foreign’ powers. In fact their calls for ‘self-sufficiency’ and ‘genuine democracy’ are a little concerning coming from a party of Stalin-era nostalgists…</blockquote>

It strikes me that in your comments there is a real lack of mass line. And you offer no alternative program... In countries like Greece there are real revolutionary movements, but little-to-no consciousness for <i>socialist and communist</i> revolution (and actually a revulsion to those words because of the way it is associated with reformists).

So what do communists do in a situation like that? Should they boycott the squares like most of the left has done, claiming that the revolutionary movement is opportunist (isn't that such a bizarre formulation of the rightists in Greece?)? Or do they join into it and fight for a revolution, and work to figure out the rest at the same time?

KOE is in an on-going to debate on how they get from this revolution to socialism. And I think that is a perfectly reasonable thing, rather than drawing premature idealist conclusions isolated from the society's revolutionary movement.

just a ton of democratist deadweight and pandering to to "greece for greeks" gross sentiments. i don't see how KOE is qualitatively different from the KKE and other social democratic lieutenants of capital

I may very well be confused about what's going on 'on the ground' so to speak, you were there and spoke to these people and I have not. However I can only go by what's stated in that section of the pamphlet. Here's how I read it, and if I'm missing something please point out where I'm mistaken:

The statement

"[The KOE argues] that the time has come for a revolution from the square."

is immediately followed with

"To be clear, such a revolution (in their current conception) would not be immediately socialist in form, and, in fact, socialism has not been a widespread demand among the people in Syntagma Square. But this revolution would, in the KOE’s view, expel the International Monetary Fund and the European Union, and move towards forming some sort of new “People’s Democracy, with a leader something like Chavez for a period of time.”

From what I read here, the KOE is arguing for a non-communist revolution based in the squares movement that would result in pulling out of the EU, kicking out the IMF, and a Chavez-like leader for "some time". If this is not the case, then I guess I'm wrong but I'd be very interested if you could provide me with anything that they may have put out detailing a proposal to run the country via the squares movement.
I'll admit I was being provocative with the "taking the reins of imposing austerity" remark but I wasn't being completely obtuse because it relates to the substance of what the KOE seems to be calling for. Just how viable is the autarky model alluded to by the KOE's demands? If a default on the IMF is on the agenda, just how will the Greek state under said "Chavez-like" leader pony up the cash needed for the investment needed to be self-sufficient? After all, Chavez can be Chavez primarily because of Venezuela's vast national oil wealth, something Greece lacks. I believe the most likely outcome of such a plan would be severe inflation, a kind of indirect austerity that would lower the standard of living for people in the country.

Maybe you're right, about my comments lacking ‘mass line’… I'm no Maoist and my conception of communist revolution does not involve a party separate from the working class. The concept is not in my approach, and when you reject the premise of a Leninist vanguard and 'frontism' it’s not applicable. But I'm aware we're not in agreement here and am not terribly interested in having that discussion at the moment(though if you can clarify how this relates to the KOE’s application of ‘mass line’ and where they’re going with that I'd be interested in spite of my disagreements with the tactics). I’m also not about to offer an alternative program, I don’t live there so far be it from me to tell them what to do. Additionally, critique entails no obligation to do so. If what you’re asking is if I see any other approaches/currents within Greece to use as a counterexample, I guess I’d point to those in or around anarchist and ultraleft milieu that haven’t abandoned the squares movement. TPTG put out a very interesting piece: Preliminary notes towards an account of the «movement of popular assemblies» that I think has the right orientation.

My critique is basically this: They are a European communist party in a reformist coalition(I acknowledge the tensions you've pointed out but they have not left it yet as far as I'm aware) and they are not calling for a revolutionary overthrow of capital and/or dissolution of the bourgeois state in any public writings that I’ve seen. Why the fascination with them as an organization aside from the fact that they identify as Maoist(or is that exactly it)? The demands are entirely within the framework of capital and are eerily absent of any communist content, instead they appear to be pandering to nationalist sentiments like “Greece for Greeks” mentioned by the previous commenter.