So now the KOE wants Greece to remain in the Eurozone in order to preserve 'bourgeois democracy' and keep their place in Syriza. This kind of line has to be smashed to pieces in Greece and everywhere around the world. How the hell can you build socialism when you are in the Euro and your financial system is controlled by the EU?

I guess Kasama hasn't learned learn their lessons from Nepal.

Yes! It is the editors of Kasama (who didn't write this article) who have forgotten nothing and learned nothing! Let's not make the same mistake!

?

KOE wrote:
"Based on everything we have just said, it should be clear why the slogan “Out of the Euro Zone!” has not been, for quite a while, one of the immediate demands of the KOE."

Based on what the press release said, it's far from "clear". It seems more like it was never a serious demand. Once Merkel began to "threaten" Greece with expulsion, the KOE, instead of saluting the "threat", submitted to it - "oh don't worry, departure from imperialist alliances is just a long term goal like socialism". This brings KOE closer to the EU-collaborationist mainstream of Syriza. From post-Maoists to, should we say, ex-Maoists. Oh Greece, where are your communists?

Okay, I admit it is pretty depressing stuff. As usual with the left, they do not tell you concretely exactly what policies they are for. "True Democracy", what the devil is that supposed to mean? One might have thought that our Greek comrades had taken the time to read Aristotle's Politics and learned exactly what democracy means, seeing as the Greeks invented it. It means, and this is its only meaning, 'the rule of the poor.' It is clear that neither in Greece nor anywhere else for that matter, do the poor rule! (1279b-1280a for Aristotle's analysis). Now here are some concrete proposals, invented by the Greeks themselves:
1. All major political decisions to be agreed by referendum
2. Abolition of judges; their replacement by large juries
3. Election of all public officials for a period of one year
4. Parliaments or Assemblies of the people to be chosen by lot from a large pool of pre-selected candidates, to serve for only one year.
5. All public officials to have their record in office examined by a jury and their financial transactions and bank accounts opened to public scrutiny. ( the Greeks even used to have a word for this-euthuna!). The death penalty to be applied to those who misuse public funds, e.g. sending capital abroad ( I believe South Korea used to have such a policy-no wonder they flourished!)

Look, the Greek government never had any vestiges of 'democracy' to lose: it is an oligarchy like every other government in the world. Maybe if the KOE stood up and said 'We do not aim at power for ourselves; we intend to introduce a democracy', more people might support them! Might not appeal to latter-day leninists, though.

It is quite clear from the article that the KOE has ditched its policy of bringing Greece out of the Eurozone. It makes no sense to argue that this policy will bring Greece closer to struggles in other countries. This is just a very thin cover for reformism. As far as right-nationalism goes, I do take the point that Germany is a leading imperialist power but I would certainly not go as far as the KOE does talking of all this as a struggle between Greece and Germany. Greece is not a semi-feudal, semi-colonial power and I think some of the KOE's language is inappropriate in this regard. The problems of the Greek working class aren't fundamentally a problem with 'German domination'.

The KOE has clearly capitulated to reformism for electoral reasons. Trying to convince ourselves that a bourgeois electoral line is actually a subtle revolutionary line is a mistake we all made about Nepal. Let's not make the same error again.

How can you overthrow the Troika without overthrowing EU in Greece, that is, assuming the continued existence of EU in the near future, Greece exiting the EU or at least the Euro-zone? If the KOE thinks it's not possible to eat the cake and save it too i.e. not possible to overthrow the Troika without exiting the Euro-zone, they should tell it to the people. Anything less amounts to lying to the people in order to tail it.

And if "non-revolutionary right-Brezhnevites"(a tautology) are the only ones demanding exit from the Euro-zone and the EU, then there's not going to be any revolution in Greece. If the exit from the imperialist alliances is not an immediate demand, then any talk of "revolutionary overthrow" as an immediate demand is empty demagoguery not much different from that of Tsipras and his declarations of "peaceful revolution".

This is not about the specifics of the situation in Greece, it's about the fundamental laws of political power and revolution. If the exit from this imperialist alliance of bourgeois national states is not on the order of the day, then isn't any revolution on the national level either. It isn't any more possible than the opposite (a revolutionary overthrow on the EU level while remaining in the bourgeois national states).

That the KOE is Greek doesn't make it right, either. They propose as "clear" something that isn't agreed even among the Greek left, even if you exclude the KKE.

I would like to thank Kasama for their excellent coverage of the struggle in Greece, even if certain commentators in this thread are philistines.

Eric:
"Greece does not even have a functioning bourgeois democracy". No, it doesn't, nor could it have ,seeing as there is no such thing. What it does have is a mal-functioning oligarchy. I am sure the Greek people are giving voice to genuine democratic demands, but are the Greek communists articulating these demands, "from the people to the people" ?
Lenin may have correctly, though inadequately, analysed the class nature of the modern state, but his concept of the party is profoundly oligarchical, as Trotsky observed way back in1904! What we need to articulate is the class nature of the proletarian state, such that we do not replace one oligarchy with another, and that means we have to spell out the precise institutions of such a state. It seems to me at any rate that ancient Athenian democratic practices offer much more valuable insights into possible ways forward than the Leninist concept of the party. In a democracy nobody is in power for longer than a year; with the leninist party one has a cadre of full-time functionaries who in time turn into a social stratum divorced from the masses, an oligarchy who gradually come to recognise in themselves the potential personification of capital. The Nepalese Revolution is only the latest of such. I by no means wish to deny that some of Lenin's ideas on the party are still valid , but I do insist that the revolutionary party does not take power. One recalls with Marx and Engels that under communism the state begins to wither away. How does the State dominated by the leninist party wither away? History suggests it does not; it turns into a capitalist state. This is exactly what democratic theory would predict. It may well be that in Greece, as elsewhere, the people are more advanced than the leninist party, for more and more they seem increasingly to distrust political parties, and surely they are right so to do.I wish Marxists could break with the leninist legacy and cease to see in themselves and their 'party' the supreme embodiment of some potential revolution.

Eric Ribellarsi wrote:
"No one thinks that"

-It is the will of the Greek people. Yes, respect that will, support the doomed effort for revolutionary overthrow of the Troika while remaining in the Euro-zone, but don't lie to the people. Support the effort, but allow no illusions about the consequences. If the communists don't do that, who will? You're voluntarily surrendering this duty to the KKE.

"This question is like “how can one construct socialism based upon ‘peace, land, and bread.’”"

-It's not like that question. Exiting imperialist alliances was among the bolsheviks' immediate demands (check 'peace') already before the February revolution, the revolution that didn't carry out that demand.

"You are asking communists to make their central slogan a cheering of Merkel’s plans to impose a complete devastation and isolation on Greek society. In what mass line does that make any sense?"

-In the real world, in the real Europe, expulsion from the EU or its Euro-zone means devastation and isolation to some degree. You can't have a revolutionary overthrow without that. To salute Merkel's "threat" is to salute the prospect of divorce from the Euro-zone and preferably also EU, not the imperialist isolation that inevitably follows. It's to turn it into a non-threat. If losing Greece from the EU was in the interests of the imperialists, it would have happened earlier. In reality, it's a painful prospect for both the Euro-imperialists as well as the Greek national bourgeoisie.

"And why is it the principal task of revolutionaries to demand exit from the Euro-zone, as opposed to the overthrow of Troika regime?"

-Not as opposed, but as linked together (as they objectively are).

As implied the call for a "different Greece in a different Europe" encompasses the particulars in Greece while advancing the spread of the revolution through Europe. It is clearly a more internationalist slogan than calling for an immediate withdrawal from the Eurozone. There have been those that have criticized KOE's nationalist bend, particularly in regard to how it perceives the role of Germany. However these same critics fail to see through reading this article and others posted here and by KOE, that in raising the slogan of a new Europe the KOE is thinking beyond the old conception of socialism in one country, a conception which in practice proved very difficult even in huge countries like Russia and China, and is doing what it can to spread a revolutionary tide across the continent of Europe. What can be consolidated will be figured out in the realm of actual struggle and if it becomes clear that the whole EZ cannot go down, why not think about taking a few countries out of it through the course of resistance (for instance Italy, Spain, Ireland, etc.). The critics are looking at things I feel from a sought of ideological purity and with a narrowness of view which is indeed nationalist in that it looks at things from, at its best, what should Greece do to consolidate socialism within its own borders. And the logic and conclusions of the critics are unsound including in thinking about necessary slogan that capture the peoples' needs and aspirations through mass line. It seems from what I have read so far, that KOE is maneuvering from a loftier position which at the same time is more practical, in that it would be very hard to advance a revolution in Greece alone and thus the actualness of it's slogan--- for there to be a different Greece, a different Europe is essential.

Great to see the KOE is not making the same mistake as KKE. Eric is absolutely right about the question of leaving the E.U. The fact that those who are arguing against him are creating strawmen is proof enough.

The real question is what comrades in the U.S. are going to learn and apply from the SYRIZA experience.

Well I am not Greek, but my uncle is, so I don't undertand the complexities of this too well. Simply saying out of the Eurozone is quite vague. It is also the slogan of the far right. I think the real demand here is that the Greeks will not be slaves of the EU or Germany or the big banks which in reality control the whole thing, even Germany. That the government of Greece will do whats right for Greece not what the pundits say is the "responsible thing" for the EU largely dominated by wealthier countries. So leaving the EU not leaving the EU, whatever is best for Greece. I don't personally see outright leaving the EU as a good move for Greece at this point. The beauty of Socialism/Communism is the possibility to break free of the tyranny of numbers in some bank account. Greece still has workers, Greece still has resources, its not as if a stock market crash or electronic debt in the bank literally makes cites crumble. There is no reason the Greek people cannot produce and be economically active, creating the things that are necessary for life. Hopefully the new Greek government will not liberal out and will pursue a planned by the people for the people kind of economy. Whether or not they decide to leave the EU or get kicked out, which will probably happen if they declare they will ignore debts and carry on business in a publicly controlled way, is not in my opinion the measuring stick. I think there is a potential the people can take control of the EU, and the US for that matter and the world. There is certainly a lot of unrest and activity going on in Spain in Britain in Germany even. In France they elected a Socialist who is in reality more of a liberal but its a huge improvement over Sarkozy nonetheless. It doesn't necessarily take a bloody war or violent revolution to overthrow the banks power. All they have is a bunch of ones and zeroes on their computers, and the fact that we believe that their numbers have meaning in the physical world

Eric keeps saying I did not read the article. This is what the KOE are saying about exit from the Eurozone:

'Since May 2010 it is the EU Directorate headquartered in Brusselles (Belgium), and especially the German element, that has led Greece toward the exit doors of the Euro zone – in order to threaten the people of Greece, and to control the country politically. And, it is a given that in these scenarios, it is the Directorate (under German control) that prepares itself to control the terms and conditions of that expulsion.

As a result: It is obvious that the KOE has no choice but to resolutely oppose such an “alternative” plan by Germany which would impose on Greece an extremely devalued “national” currency, precisely the kind Greece experienced during the Nazi occupation of World War 2.'

and later 'Based on everything we have just said, it should be clear why the slogan “Out of the Euro Zone!” has not been, for quite a while, one of the immediate demands of the KOE.'

I am sorry but Eric's comments are the error we all made over Nepal repeating itself-refusing to believe the evidence of our own eyes.

About a few reoccurring arguments opposing the absolute rejection of the EU:

-"Internationalism": There's nothing internationalist in remaining in imperialist organizations and alliances, quite the contrary. Promoting it constitutes a betrayal of the world proletariat and oppressed peoples.

-"Socialism in one country": This has nothing to do with the question. You build socialism in those countries where you have the political power. Getting power under EU is not even a prospect, it's a reformist, social-imperialist illusion.

Then about another thing. Many seem to imply that the Troika is somehow "imposed" on the "Greek democracy", i.e. on the Greek state, i.e. on the Greek national bourgeoisie. That is not the case. The subjugation of the Greek people is a bilateral deal between the Greek national bourgeoisie and the EU imperialism. The Greek national bourgeoisie is not forced into this, it does so based on its own class interests. It's been a long road since 1981 and the "independence", has been sold via the EEC long before the Troika. Therefore there's use of talking about "democracy" or "independence" while that class remains in place.

"For a different Greece in a different Europe" is an empty slogan, that is especially vague on the question of political power. It communicates no differentiation between the EU as an imperialist organisation and Europe as a geographical area, no differentiation between the bourgeois Greek state and the Greek nation. It's strange how "independence" can still be the slogan of the day for the KOE, if it doesn't include as a demand one of its prerequisites - the exit from the Euro-zone.

Uh oh...

www.newsdaily.com/stories/bre84k06c-us-greece-tsipras/

"He pointed to the United States, where he said the Obama administration's stimulus program had helped make the recession less severe than in Europe..."

Was Tsipras simply being quoted out of context, or does he actually maintain that the Obama administration is an example to follow?

I've heard enough of this guy Tsipras. In the last piece of news I read about him, he said he wants to save the Euro. That is the position of his party, the Synaspismos, which is also the main component of the Syriza coalition. KOE's softening stance towards the EU should be viewed in this context and in the context of the pressure put on the Syriza by the Greek bourgeois media about the supposed anti-EU troublemaker KOE. So yes, using KOE's own words, "it should be clear why the slogan “Out of the Euro Zone!” has not been, for quite a while, one of the immediate demands of the KOE". So much for this Joker Tsipras and the ex-Maoists tailing him.

"For a different Greece in a different Europe"? Why not, at least, "For a socialist Greece in a socialist Europe" or "For a workers' Greece in a workers' Europe"? But even that doesn't solve the problem of participation in European exploitation of the neo-colonial world. Why, in particular, is there not a single mention on this page of NATO, which is a much more concentrated expression of European and Euro-American (i.e., white-supremacist) imperialism than is either the EU or the Eurozone? Wouldn't a principal slogan of any genuinely left, socialist or communist party in Greece have to be, "Greece out of NATO! Immediately!"?